Guns,guns, and more Guns

[Blackswanwood]

The gun laws in the US, like any other law could be changed but never will be, it's much like our NHS where major restrictions and changes would most likely be political suicide so they dare not do it and pay lip service. As a reaction in the UK we would see strikes, in the US the gun brigade would be out in the streets rioting, firing shots in the air or worse.

That pretty much sums it up!

I also think most of are not best placed to opine on what the US should do as their history, geography and outlook is different to ours.

In my view we have a pretty sound approach to guns for our situation in the UK and I'm keen to see it stay that way.

 

[RobinBHM]

interesting this argument that guns are important for defence.

Its funny how America has big gun conventions, big gun shows.

it’s funny how America doesn’t have big shows for home security, door locks, alarm systems…

maybe guns aren’t bought for security..l….l

if you have a gun for security you gotta have that thing cocked ready to fire 24 7.

 

[RobinBHM]

You said:
“strict gun laws equals low gun crime
that holds for the vast majority of countries in the world.”

The first line is a definitive statement with no qualification.
The second line states that the definitive statement does not hold true in all instances.
Granted, the lack of any punctuation could create room for confusion, but does it not change the fact that there is contradiction.

Zero contradiction.

the first statement is not qualified, it doesn’t say 100% of the time, does it?

Nor does it say “ includes countries with major drug war problems”

so I repeat

”strict gun laws equals low gun crime”
the evidence proves it.

 

[artie]

Yebbut how many are private sales and how many of those are actually under the counter dealers posing as private?

It doesn't matter. They are all private sales unless you go to a FFL
You are free to buy and sell guns in most states, Arizona being one.

My last visit was an eye opener for me, in Arizona driving back from the Grand Canyon to Vegas I spotted what we call a car boot sale, it was pretty big and at least 90% of sellers had guns and other weapons openly displayed for sale, some had little else and there was ammo as well. I handled quite a few of the guns from hand pistols through to semi automatics and have no doubt I could have bought any of them with no checks and despite being a tourist, I was offered several at very low prices indeed.

[/QUOTE]

I wasn't there but going by my previous experience, the people you met there were most friendly, helpful and welcoming. Were any of them mean to you in any way?
Hell they were even willing to knock the price down so you would have the means to defend yourself.

Ammo isn't controlled in most places, A guy in new hampshire was amazed when I showed him my FAC with a 1000 rnd limit for this and that ammo.
He wanted to give me a .50 cal round as a souvenir. lol

So I said "If I wanted to buy 100 of those .50 cal, you would sell them to me?"

"Help you carry them to the car" he replied.

I'm just thinking Lots of guys here trying to apply Soccer rules to a Baseball match.

 

[artie]

I think what they need to do is revert to the 1800's and all walk around in original garb, with a gun and holster.

That's legal in some states. No permits, licences needed.

 

[artie]

A gun and a car are equally fatal, depending on how you use them. Both are adequately cover by law. Both have consequency if you abuse them. So... if you respect them everybody is safe. If you choose to abuse them, for whatever reason, all the laws in the world will not prevent disaster and plenty heart ache.

The only school attack that I am aware of in NI happened when pupils at Sullivan Upper School, in Hollywood were attacked by a man called Garnet Bell with a flame thrower.

 

[artie]

we require car owners to pass a test, have insurance, and prove that their car is in roadworthy condition.

AFAIK anyone getting a FAC for the first time is required to undergo a period of supervision by an experienced shooter.
Gun owners insurance is highly recommended and sometimes a requirement. Insurance for clubs and ranges is very cheap which reflects the safety of these locations.

 

[Spectric]

I can see that an issue here on this discussion is that unless you have been to somewhere like the states and experienced the gun culture first hand then it is not easy to explain. When I was out there it was a strange feeling being surrounded by guns, pickups with riffles on display just like we used to have Sharon & Dave stickers in our windscreens and shops with huge displays of guns for sale with nobody taking a second glance except myself. I met a guy in Wyoming who put us up for the night and had what could only be described as an arsenal of weapons, to him it was just a collection like someone who collects stamps here in the UK but just normal there and it does give you an odd feeling. I cannot ever forsee this gun culture in the UK, who could imagine seeing M16's for sale in Asda's!

 

[clogs]

when u are allowed to visit France again.....
go to a Brocante or car boot....loads'a used shot guns for sale, I was even offered a pump action model, as new but not at his price.....hahaha....
getting rounds is a little harder but there's plenty of hunters that will help u out....

 

[D_W]

Yebbut how many are private sales and how many of those are actually under the counter dealers posing as private?

None - firearms dealers are audited by the ATF on a regular basis. A gun transferring in without transfer out paperwork is a loss of a class III license (and a loss of making a living) and then worse once punishment is decided.

It's bad for you as an individual if you don't follow gun laws. It's far worse if you're a licensed dealer, and your paperwork will be audited at some point.

(when I quit shooting and hunting, I sold all of my stuff through a licensed dealer just so he'd ship anything going to a recipient and also to make sure - in principle, not by legal requirement - that any recipients were legally entitled. The latter wouldn't have been an option once I involved the dealer - he has to do a background check. The fee is fairly small, and the service for transfer was only $25 per gun all inclusive plus the cost of shipping. If the recipient isn't a class III holder and a gun is shipped, it needs to be received by a class III holder (dealer). As in, if I'm in PA and I ship a gun to someone in VA or have a dealer do it on my behalf (either way), it must be shipped to a dealer and the individual picks it up there.

 

[D_W]

When I was out there it was a strange feeling being surrounded by guns, pickups with riffles on display just like we used to have Sharon & Dave stickers in our windscreens and shops with huge displays of guns for sale with nobody taking a second glance except myself.

Places like wyoming or any rural ranch areas are almost like a different country. I haven't seen a gun in person in PA, other than on a police officer - in at least five years (check that, my dad does have a gun cabinet with hunting rifles and shotguns, but that's hardly what you're describing - other than that...).

In rural areas of PA (like very rural), you may still see something in a truck rack - I think a lot of that has ceased because you're just asking for someone to steal your stuff. But, I'm sure you could see it here and there. I saw a lot of that growing up in central PA - a lot being maybe one in five hundred or one in a thousand cars, but you'd see it on regular occasions - but when visiting my parents in the same place, don't see it any longer.

That said, what you'd see in wyoming or rural texas isn't very representative of 95% of the US.

There are definitely collectors in a lot of places with large collections, though. Some rich, some not (and if someone is wealthy enough, they may even have machine gun collections - which require the same thing as a dealer license to possess. I've not heard of anything legal like that being used in a crime - it's cheap stolen handguns that are used for most crime here).

 

[D_W]

interesting this argument that guns are important for defence.

Its funny how America has big gun conventions, big gun shows.

it’s funny how America doesn’t have big shows for home security, door locks, alarm systems…

Well, that's not true. Our convention centers generally have at least two home shows a year and home security is a pretty large part of them. Not exclusively (though there may be some security only shows aimed at professionals).

But I'd guess something like 95% of guns bought in the US are leisure guns. Either target shooting, collecting or hunting.

People applying for a carry permit are probably applying for security. I had a carry permit at one point because the hunter's safety instructor told us to get one (they're $19 for five years) as you're technically breaking the law if you target shoot or hunt and stop anywhere along the way (get gas or pick up food, etc). I doubt most people who have a carry permit actually carry, though. I never did. If you have a carry permit, then it's legal for you to be stowing certain things in your trunk and stop for a gallon of milk. It also, I guess, tells any law enforcement officer that you have no criminal record.

I've not felt unsafe in the states, so the idea of carrying anything seemed like an unnecessary hassle. If I lived in an area where I felt unsafe enough to carry, it would seem like moving away is a better option.

 

[Fergie 307]

The constitution doesn't give rights it merely acknowledges them and states in the case of the second amendment, words to the effect that the right to keep and bear arms will not be infringed.
The reason for the second amendment was so that the people could hold an overpowering government in check, so that's why assault rifles are fine to own.

BTW a mini gun is legal to own but they're pretty expensive and there's extra tax to pay.

I find it truly horrifying that anyone could contemplate allowing a citizen to own a mini gun, what possible justification could there be? As for the overpowering government argument I had always assumed that this was to prevent ever again being placed under the authority of an outside power, like the British. That's fair enough. But would anyone, other than perhaps those sitting in a foil lined room with a colander on their head, seriously suggest this could be applied to your current system of government? You live in a democracy. If you don't like the current resident of the White House, you can vote them out after four years. Or, as has so often happened, use your votes to change the balance of power in the Senate and congress, so he or she can't actually do the things you don't like. None of this requires people taking to the streets with automatic weapons, or is ever likely to. I cannot think of any other society which is prepared to allow its children and other citizens to be randomly murdered in large numbers, and fight like mad to resist any measures that might mitigate the problem. Bonkers.

 

[D_W]

you do realize that to "own a minigun", you have to file for a class III license and your house is then free game for ATF and government agencies to search any time 24 hours a day. No warrant is needed, and no notice needs to be given ahead of time.

If you're wondering whether or not the ATF ever does inspections at odd hours, they did so to a dealer near where I grew up, showing up at his house and his store overnight because they suspected he wasn't keeping documentation properly. That turned out to be the case - the dealer wasn't keeping older records (he thought the rules were a pain for things that were no longer relevant) and he was shut down.

Translation - who actually owns a minigun? I'd bet you could actually find a list of names - you'd have to be extremely wealthy, and everyone on vacation in your area who watched terminator movies would say "can I come over and try it?!?".

I did know exactly one person who had automatic rifles and a class III without being a dealer - actually, my dad knew the guy. I never met him. The back story was that he married a wealthy lady who inherited a bunch of money and spent her money on machine guns and mcintosh audio equipment.

There was one loophole here that I didn't like, and that was that the "bump stock" was interpreted under the obama administration to be a legal firearm and not an automatic rifle because the gun itself didn't repeat, but the movement of the shooter's hand (influenced by a trick stock) did. I thought it should be class III and the interpretation by the ATF was to the letter of the law and not the spirit.

Trump got in office, declared it a machine gun and had it moved to class III. As a matter of how hopeless politics can make people (or how irrational), there was almost no backlash to Trump more or less overruling agencies and demanding something because he felt "it's a machine gun". It'd have been an enormous pain if it occurred under Obama.

Bump stock is what the las vegas shooter used. I could not understand why Obama didn't make a stink when the ATF ruled it wasn't functionally a machine gun part and was happy to see Trump have it moved to restricted status.

 

[Ozi]

Getting back to the subject of armed law enforcement and understanding that we do not see the vast majority of competent officers going about a dangerous job without acting as judge, jury and executioner a thing that has always puzzled me is when a police shooting makes headline news they always seem to keep firing until the gun is empty. If using a 45 you would think that unless you are dealing with a suspected suicide bomber one hit would do the job, it would be quite exceptional to still be threatening with a hole that size in any part of the body. Also the officer with the now empty gun is vulnerable until they can reload. I would expect fire and assess before firing again to be very much part of the training. Does anybody know, is it just that when we see footage it is because things have gone very wrong?

 

[Ozi]

While I was typing this came up on a news channel I had open. Bloody tragic. Glad I live in a place where I wouldn't assume anyone entering my house had a gun.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

involving the so called NRA

It really is called the National Rifle Association, or NRA.

I find it truly horrifying that anyone could contemplate allowing a citizen to own a mini gun, what possible justification could there be? As for the overpowering government argument I had always assumed that this was to prevent ever again being placed under the authority of an outside power, like the British. That's fair enough. But would anyone, other than perhaps those sitting in a foil lined room with a colander on their head, seriously suggest this could be applied to your current system of government? You live in a democracy. If you don't like the current resident of the White House, you can vote them out after four years. Or, as has so often happened, use your votes to change the balance of power in the Senate and congress, so he or she can't actually do the things you don't like. None of this requires people taking to the streets with automatic weapons, or is ever likely to. I cannot think of any other society which is prepared to allow its children and other citizens to be randomly murdered in large numbers, and fight like mad to resist any measures that might mitigate the problem. Bonkers.

The "Founding Fathers" were were a bunch of revolutionary freedom fighters, who a) would be classed as terrorists today, and b) had just won their revolutionary war and thrown out their evil overlord despotic foreign dictator (or king, as he liked to be referred to). They very much wanted the revolutionary spirit to live on forever, where every man was an independent master of his own destiny. If you could bring any of them back to life they would be truly appalled at the current lack of freedom, and would almost certainly take up arms against the oppressive new government which has failed the revolutionary ideals in almost every way.

If you are wondering how effective an armed insurrection might be in the USA, have a look at Afghanistan who have just, in their view, overthrown their own evil overlord despotic foreign dictator.

And a final thought - at no point in the American revolutionary war was more than 5% of the population involved - it doesn't take much for a militant minority to enforce their will on the majority. Good times ahead for all of us. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Ozi]

you do realize that to "own a minigun", you have to file for a class III license and your house is then free game for ATF and government agencies to search any time 24 hours a day. No warrant is needed, and no notice needs to be given ahead of time.

If you're wondering whether or not the ATF ever does inspections at odd hours, they did so to a dealer near where I grew up, showing up at his house and his store overnight because they suspected he wasn't keeping documentation properly. That turned out to be the case - the dealer wasn't keeping older records (he thought the rules were a pain for things that were no longer relevant) and he was shut down.

Translation - who actually owns a minigun? I'd bet you could actually find a list of names - you'd have to be extremely wealthy, and everyone on vacation in your area who watched terminator movies would say "can I come over and try it?!?".

I did know exactly one person who had automatic rifles and a class III without being a dealer - actually, my dad knew the guy. I never met him. The back story was that he married a wealthy lady who inherited a bunch of money and spent her money on machine guns and mcintosh audio equipment.

There was one loophole here that I didn't like, and that was that the "bump stock" was interpreted under the obama administration to be a legal firearm and not an automatic rifle because the gun itself didn't repeat, but the movement of the shooter's hand (influenced by a trick stock) did. I thought it should be class III and the interpretation by the ATF was to the letter of the law and not the spirit.

Trump got in office, declared it a machine gun and had it moved to class III. As a matter of how hopeless politics can make people (or how irrational), there was almost no backlash to Trump more or less overruling agencies and demanding something because he felt "it's a machine gun". It'd have been an enormous pain if it occurred under Obama.

Bump stock is what the las vegas shooter used. I could not understand why Obama didn't make a stink when the ATF ruled it wasn't functionally a machine gun part and was happy to see Trump have it moved to restricted status.

I don't know if this is true - I hope it's not but didn't Obama try and fail to get the sale of automatic weapons to suspects on a terrorist watch list made illegal? IF that's correct that's the gun lobby saying you're not having anything stop trying - I would be interested to know the truth if anyone state side has the correct information to share

 

[RobinBHM]

Well, that's not true. Our convention centers generally have at least two home shows a year and home security is a pretty large part of them

But not attended by gun enthusiasts looking to improve their “defences”

that’s the thing, the claim guns are a defence is simply untrue.

 

[bansobaby]

Zero contradiction.

the first statement is not qualified, it doesn’t say 100% of the time, does it?

Nor does it say “ includes countries with major drug war problems”

so I repeat

”strict gun laws equals low gun crime”
the evidence proves it.

Ok, so 2 equals 2 except when it doesn’t ??????

You win, I give up