Guaranteeing building work - how long?

[Lard]

Hi all,
Following a ‘random’ pub group discussion the other day its left me wondering about how long should a ’one-man band’/single tradesman guarantee their work?

I’m not talking about large/medium or even small building constructions (ie extensions etc) but jobs like small garden walls, fencing, patio slabs etc

For instance, a single slab becoming loose, or pointing falling out etc……what if the owner is jet washing or holds regular parties (ie heavy foot traffic).

In my time I always worked within written contract conditions and so understand the formal areas of retentions, practical completions, full completions etc but what do the guys who simply ‘odd-job’ for a living do? After what period do they say something like “hold on, I finished this over a year ago etc etc”

How long should these individuals honour their work? I’d be really interested to hear what your opinions are.
Thanks.

 

[Jacob]

No need to guarantee anything at all. If something does go wrong consider each case on it's merits.

 

[rogxwhit]

Much work is done outside the realm of formal contracts, and I have generally expected to have a personal relationship with the customer. So if occasionally there's an issue, one proceeds by negotiation and a sense of what is reasonable.

 

[johna.clements]

Who decides if a defect is covered by a guarantee.
A one man band is unlikely to be a member of an insurance scheme so they will decide if it is covered.

But it is fairly easy to take someone to the small claims court. If you do not take the time to defend yourself, and not work that day, you are likely to have to pay. If it is something major then you are likely to loose anyway.

If you go and replace the rocking paving slab on an afternoon of your choice (within reason) when another job has finished does it cost you much. If they have not already done so they could give you a good review on line, if you do not they will certainly give you a bad one.

 

[ajs]

When I worked in home insurance we worked on the basis that legal liability for building work is six years. From what I've heard companies caught up in Grenfell-style cladding issues are on the hook for that long too. That's on a statutory basis, you're liable whether you consider that you offer a guarantee or not.

 

[Jameshow]

Often goodwill and a pleasant manner goes along way.

A loft conversion I did went badly after they decided to turn on the heating and the cladding shrank.... But they want me back to fit a kitchen?!

Another time a shed built popped screws I had used so I built him another and then a porch finally he wanted a extension but I knew my limits

 

[Pedronicus]

When I worked in home insurance we worked on the basis that legal liability for building work is six years. From what I've heard companies caught up in Grenfell-style cladding issues are on the hook for that long too. That's on a statutory basis, you're liable whether you consider that you offer a guarantee or not.

I'm sure I read recently that there is a proposal to extend the 6 year period to 15 years. As I am due to have a medical procedure tomorrow I will try and find the details over the weekend.

In the meantime this article may be of interest and shed some light on the OP's question. Defects liability periods in construction contracts

 

[johna.clements]

When I worked in home insurance we worked on the basis that legal liability for building work is six years. From what I've heard companies caught up in Grenfell-style cladding issues are on the hook for that long too. That's on a statutory basis, you're liable whether you consider that you offer a guarantee or not.

A normal "under hand" contract is for six years. If it "under seal" it is for twelve. The wording of the contract will decide which.

 

[D_W]

Warranties are often provided here in the states, but more valuable is word of mouth about workmanship not needing them.

Roof and siding warranties are common, but the terms in them usually leave determination of coverage to a company or an independent adjuster who is just a consultant for the company. Roofing is just about the worst - every damage determination is usually ruled "improper installation" and it's hard to make a dent.

Fairly famous has been settlements on synthetic solid siding materials, which advertise color through and through with no fade and a 50 year warranty. I'm not sure if those settlements leave the company in business, though, and if they don't, there's probably not much recourse.

 

[johna.clements]

Warranties are often provided here in the states, but more valuable is word of mouth about workmanship not needing them.

Roof and siding warranties are common, but the terms in them usually leave determination of coverage to a company or an independent adjuster who is just a consultant for the company. Roofing is just about the worst - every damage determination is usually ruled "improper installation" and it's hard to make a dent.

Fairly famous has been settlements on synthetic solid siding materials, which advertise color through and through with no fade and a 50 year warranty. I'm not sure if those settlements leave the company in business, though, and if they don't, there's probably not much recourse.

A 50 year warranty is largely meaningless unless it is backed by a bond with an insurance company. Will the company still be trading.

In 50 years time I will have received a couple of letters from the King if I am not dead. I doubt I will be living in the same house. Such a long guarantee would also have to be transferable with the ownership of the property.

 

[MikeJhn]

In the UK even small works can be covered by the "JCT80 Small works" form of contract.

 

[2sheds]

When I worked in home insurance we worked on the basis that legal liability for building work is six years. From what I've heard companies caught up in Grenfell-style cladding issues are on the hook for that long too. That's on a statutory basis, you're liable whether you consider that you offer a guarantee or not.

We had a Building Control inspection last week. He told me that the liability period for work under Building control is now increased from 10 years to (he thought) 16 years! He said this wasn’t just for new build and extension work either! And many building and construction forms will possibly not last that long!

 

[Lard]

The reason behind my original post was that the nephew of one of my mates (simple sole trader) laid a large 200 slab patio (Indian stone) 14 months ago and he has been called back to relay 3 ‘loose’ slabs (3 visits, one slab per visit)…..he’s always gone back to put them right BUT at what point in time should he say enough is enough? He can’t guarantee them for life but ‘when‘ is an appropriate cut-off point?

In the group we also all had stories where work had been satisfactorily completed and agreed but the client had simply refused to pay (carpenter hung a new door and lady just said “I’m not paying”)……he had to take it on the chin as it was not worth the hassle or expense of getting legal.

 

[johna.clements]

The reason behind my original post was that the nephew of one of my mates (simple sole trader) laid a large 200 slab patio (Indian stone) 14 months ago and he has been called back to relay 3 ‘loose’ slabs (3 visits, one slab per visit)…..he’s always gone back to put them right BUT at what point in time should he say enough is enough? He can’t guarantee them for life but ‘when‘ is an appropriate cut-off point?

In the group we also all had stories where work had been satisfactorily completed and agreed but the client had simply refused to pay (carpenter hung a new door and lady just said “I’m not paying”)……he had to take it on the chin as it was not worth the hassle or expense of getting legal.

The foundations for a patio will be very shallow. Your nephew can not control what is happening below the formation. The odd loose paving slab after a year is wear and tear. If large numbers were to come loose that would be a different matter.

People get works done with no intention of paying should be treated as fraudsters. But people know that the police do not investigate minor crime. It would be different if they asked for a hardwood door and a softwood was installed then it should just be a civil matter.

 

[Lard]

The odd loose paving slab after a year is wear and tear.

Yes, that is a good point but I do see it from their perspective also, ie you wouldn’t expect a patio to NOT withstand foot traffic but for how long?

I’d like to say a year but even I don’t think that is ‘reasonable’, however, two years - surely too long……and so somewhere in between…….perhaps??

 

[Lard]

A normal "under hand" contract is for six years. If it "under seal" it is for twelve. The wording of the contract will decide which.

Thanks for this. I’ve just read up on it.

I’m pretty sure that the ‘jobbing’ builder had no written contract whatsoever and so, if it goes ‘legal’ the court will obviously assume implied contract terms into which (I very much assume) the above would also be an implied term.

So, I’m reading this as saying that even the ‘minorist’ (no such word ) of works should, in the legal sense, be warranted for six years.

Wear and tear is a very good counter-argument but just adds to the grey-ness but, I suppose, would then have to be argued by any defendant……cheapest route starting with solicitor followed by arbitration.

 

[johna.clements]

Yes, that is a good point but I do see it from their perspective also, ie you wouldn’t expect a patio to NOT withstand foot traffic but for how long?

I’d like to say a year but even I don’t think that is ‘reasonable’, however, two years - surely too long……and so somewhere in between…….perhaps??

If it was a road there would normally be 12 months defects liability period from practical completion. Practical completion would be when all the slabs were laid etc but may not include some minor things like a bit of grass seeding that is delayed because it is winter, keeps raining, to hot in summer.

 

[johna.clements]

Thanks for this. I’ve just read up on it.

I’m pretty sure that the ‘jobbing’ builder had no written contract whatsoever and so, if it goes ‘legal’ the court will obviously assume implied contract terms into which (I very much assume) the above would also be an implied term.

So, I’m reading this as saying that even the ‘minorist’ (no such word ) of works should, in the legal sense, be warranted for six years.

Wear and tear is a very good counter-argument but just adds to the grey-ness but, I suppose, would then have to be argued by any defendant……cheapest route starting with solicitor followed by arbitration.

I am an engineer not a solicitor but I think warranties are slightly different to guarantees. Warranties normally involve some sort of payment or insurance or bond. You could just guarantee, promise that extends legal rights , that you will make repairs for three years or you take out a warranty; insurance or lodge a bond that will pay the client if you do not repair. With a warranties you will charge more because of the cost but they have more protection especially if you stop trading. That is my understanding and it may not be quite correct.

A proper guarantee is normally for more than your legal rights! It is expected that the ground will move therefore the odd slab starting to rock after a year is unlikely to be covered by legal rights. If you give a guarantee that the slabs will not rock for three years you extend their legal rights. If you just guarantee that you will do a good job then it is largely meaningless as leagal you are supposed to do a good job (merchantable quality).

 

[Spectric]

how long should a ’one-man band’/single tradesman guarantee their work?

It should make no difference if it is a single person or two or three, either way the job should be done to the right standard of workmanship and using the right materials so then it all depends upon what the job is. An issue at the moment is that due to the higher cost of materials then some dodgy builders are cutting corners to get the cost down to secure work, the customer needs to look carefully at the quotations and not just reject on cost because odds on you will get what you pay for and it is cheaper to get a job done right first time than having to employ someone else to put it right.

On your patio issue, even if done correctly then I would accept some initial lose slabs because it happens, more so with real stone than concrete imposters but then after that initial period I would not expect issues for many years to come unless the customer has parked a car on it or done something you don't do on a patio. Most issues are not with the slab laying but the poorly laid base, if that moves then the slabs follow so doing the job right is the way to keep customers happy and get a good reputation.

 

[D_W]

bad customer, no suggestion other than to let them know loose stones are part of a patio where the stones aren't permanently affixed.

They probably won't like it.

My MIL and FIL had a new house built by a "plus" builder about a decade ago now. The countertop caulk on an island part of the kitchen would gradually show a small crack, and did so quickly as things settled. The builder sent a sub back out and he redid the caulk. Somewhere around 6 months later, the crack started to appear again - just minor separation, not a large gap, the MIL called the contractor again. No other issues with the entire house. The next time the sub came out, he told my MIL that the behavior was normal but hers was not and she'd have to live with it. I'm sure he did it nicely.

She was upset about it, but because he told her that, he didn't get called back out.

Sometimes those types of customers can praise you loudly if you do what they ask. Around here, they can also be customers that nickel and dime and want the best deal on everything - at that point, I'd have a realistic conversation that you do your work and stand behind it but that future fixes that aren't due to workmanship or product failure vs. normal wear and tear would receive a response only if the business was idle and reinforce the comment.

Short story - I worked for a tile contractor in high school. there was a cheap old lady who wanted an outdoor patio done and then at some point (long ago) she had that astroturfy carpet put over it. I guess some corner or edge lifted a little and she gave the contractor's journeyman-level son a lot of grief about how it should never come up, so he pulled it up and relaid it with epoxy.

hah.

Unfortunately, I was working for the father after the son left and the old lady called the father back and wanted it redone again. It was a real peach to remove it.