good cheap impact driver

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DiscoStu":3g7jzjvt said:
I'm still struggling to see your source that proves this information is wrong?

Until you have proof that the information is wrong I don't see how you can say it's liberal.

I've not once seen Ryobi plastering the torque spec anywhere except it being listed on their spec sheet so it's hardly being used for marketing.

I've also not seen any videos of people who have been given free Ryobi tools but I'll have a look for them and see if I can get on the scheme as I have a lot of their tools. Not all are great but the impact driver is a brilliant bit of kit. I know a few professionals who have now bought them even though they are traditionally Makita and Dewalt users.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When did I say they're plastering their torque spec anywhere? When did I say it's being used for marketing? I'm not. However, in the case of a tool, the best place to big it up IS the spec sheet.

I am saying some companies will take the upper end of a spec and use that to sell their item, whether that be "batteries last x hours" or "these straighteners make hair 100% straighter", it's always under certain conditions.

Figures are manipulated by marketing people, always have been, always will be.
 
QUOTE: Figures are manipulated by marketing people, always have been, always will be. UNQUOTE:

VW diesels anyone?

And, sticking with that glaring example for a mo, does anyone really believe that ALL car manufacturers don't use "the rules" to show their fuel consumption to its best possible advantage (e.g. use a 6 stone lady test driver wearing just T shirt, panties & plimsolls, with just 1 litre in the tank, with NOTHING in the boot & NOTHING in the glove box, ALL electrical services OFF, riding on the smoothest & flattest road & with the highest tyre pressures possible - and ONLY measured when the wind's blowing from behind)! In other words, "normal use it ain't"!

IMHO, Wuffles has got a point. It's not that marketing people are liars (well not absolutely!), but they do like to "present the truth in the best possible light" - and that seems to apply to cars, HiFi, telly, tools, and loads of other stuff we could all name too. :D

AES
 
DiscoStu":3lml8p0s said:
I've also not seen any videos of people who have been given free Ryobi tools but I'll have a look for them and see if I can get on the scheme as I have a lot of their tools.

April Wilkerson and Ana White for starters. Seems the Ryobi marketing people have a taste for a certain type of woodworker, I doubt that you'd qualify :D
 
pcb1962":2e3bik8y said:
DiscoStu":2e3bik8y said:
I've also not seen any videos of people who have been given free Ryobi tools but I'll have a look for them and see if I can get on the scheme as I have a lot of their tools.

April Wilkerson and Ana White for starters. Seems the Ryobi marketing people have a taste for a certain type of woodworker, I doubt that you'd qualify :D

Some beatnik, tight trouser wearing male "eye candy" too in the form of Modern Builds. Keeps on banging on about his amazing Ryobi nail gun.

Jory Brigham did it for Festool - even hung around the FOG for a bit in a "oh I'm just here for the chit chat me, no way am I doing this because a marketing beak told me to" sort of way. Assume it was actually him :) - I like him too. Watched him in that 'Merkan TV show about furniture building.
 
I have 4 Ryoby drills, I use the impact drill the most with it's easy fit chuck it's far better to fit all my bits. They are all the old blue type, must be 20 years old, I have 2 LI-ion batteries that I got when they first came on the market, still going strong. I have had to put a key chuck on one drill cause me grip is'nt what it use to be. :(
 
MattRoberts":llzismsu said:
There appears to be a lot of YouTuber bashing and borderline chauvinism in here recently. Not really necessary.

For balance, mine was a bloke. And even though I don't agree with his choice of clothing, I still watch.

Edit: Actually, I'm not sure anyone's bashing Youtubers, or being chauvinistic are they?
 
FWIW, the Ryobi delivers nowhere near the claimed 220Nm of torque, actual test figure was around 172Nm. There's a video of the test on YT somewhere. The Bosch blue and Makita both delivered around 158Nm and the Milwaukee, IIRC, was around 175Nm.
 
MMUK":1yz4hsgx said:
FWIW, the Ryobi delivers nowhere near the claimed 220Nm of torque, actual test figure was around 172Nm. There's a video of the test on YT somewhere. The Bosch blue and Makita both delivered around 158Nm and the Milwaukee, IIRC, was around 175Nm.

Oh hello you. Do you recall if the others were under specced?
 
I bought the ryobi for my dad for xmas because hes on that platform. It stated on the box 220nm

I used it to put in some 8 inch inch screws and it sank about 12 before the battery died (1.5 ah) granted im not sure any drill driver would have sank them but regardless i have 5 impact drivers and in my opinion the ryobi gives a good account of itself for the money but my 12v brushless Milwaukee cant be far off it... Its never 220nm some other drivers i have claming 180nm are much better

The new stealth driver from ridgid looks interesting similar to the makita but apparently its the fastest impact driver you can buy at the moment.. You would have to import it tho
 
pcb1962":3271xt2e said:
April Wilkerson and Ana White for starters. Seems the Ryobi marketing people have a taste for a certain type of woodworker, I doubt that you'd qualify :D

April I know is sponsored by Triton. Not seen anything if Ana but I did a quick look and aw her with some Ryobi kit so she may well be sponsored.

All I was stating was that the spec of the Ryobi was better than Makita who claimed to be the highest torque figure. No idea why you tubers have to do with that. I did thousands of screws in my decking and they flew in and the driver ran for hours. I can only pass on my experience and I wouldn't slate something as being false without knowing it.
 
DiscoStu":mtf4uqs4 said:
pcb1962":mtf4uqs4 said:
April Wilkerson and Ana White for starters. Seems the Ryobi marketing people have a taste for a certain type of woodworker, I doubt that you'd qualify :D

April I know is sponsored by Triton.

My mistake, apologies. I'm sure I've seen another female woodworker with a shop full of bright green tools.
 
pcb1962":13cxd29i said:
DiscoStu":13cxd29i said:
pcb1962":13cxd29i said:
April Wilkerson and Ana White for starters. Seems the Ryobi marketing people have a taste for a certain type of woodworker, I doubt that you'd qualify :D

April I know is sponsored by Triton.

My mistake, apologies. I'm sure I've seen another female woodworker with a shop full of bright green tools.

There's a couple of Mums - Whitney and Ashley (shanty2chic), according to Ryobi they're in the Ryobi Nation programme, along with Ben Uyeda (who I watched make a nice lounger out of logs once). No mention of April but I think she used to use Ryobi before Triton picked her up.

Craig Philips from Big Brother - yes he may have millions in properties and fame and women and all the rest of it. He still chooses to produce marketing videos for...SILVERLINE.
 
This has been entertaining... in a "Gogglebox" sort of way.

I'm a semi-retired technical marketing person; I used to write technical specs for datasheets, etc. The biggest problem BY FAR is not 'bigging-up' numbers, but finding meaningful comparisons. And I long ago learned that it was far better (in a B2B market) to be conservative with the numbers and let people say "... but when I tried it, I got far better than that!"

So some fundamentals:

Torque is not the be-all-and-end-all of drill usefulness. It's way more complex than that.

What do you want your drill to do?

- Drive in screws that need a lot of torque (e.g. the 8" woodscrews mentioned above, of unknown diameter and style, into unknown materials)?
- Drill forever into concrete?
- Drive in hundreds of "easy" screws on one battery?

In each case above the design of the optimal drill for the task will be different:

Firstly, pick a battery system: Longevity of charge is determined by the energy the battery can store and release to do work, but torque is determined by the instantaneous power the battery can deliver. These are not the same thing - a simple matter of physics definitions. And then you can design a battery that stores a lot of energy, but isn't very robust and gets knackered quickly by the charge-discharge cycle.

We've had those knocking about for years. In the days of NiCds I had 'industrial' cells and batteries, which were far more robust than consumer ones with nominally much higher capacity. I'm sure the consumer ones did initially store more energy, but they didn't last, as their construction was cheap and nasty.

There's one really good reason why all the big-name 10.8V Lithium-ion battery systems look really similar: it is HARD to do this well, and only one manufacturer has had a really good system (which I'm guessing they OEM'd to Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita, Metabo, DW etc.). These batteries look identical, with a clip-on outer shell that matches the design of the drill plastics. "Go figure," as the Americans say.

So tool system designers have to decide what they're going for battery-wise.

Now your tool will need a motor: Do you want a slow RPM, or a fast one? Importantly, this has almost nothing to do with how fast the chuck turns - only the motor. And what torque should the motor deliver at its nominal voltage, and how should it behave under increasing load? How hot will you let it get in use (significant, as heat = wasted energy, and poorer performance). How heavy and bulky are you allowed to make it, and how much can it cost?

You're not going to find one motor that does exactly what you need, so you have to choose. But you still have some fudge-factor as...

... you also have to design a gearbox. Almost all electric motors (apart from some really weird ones that don't rotate continuously), are more efficient at specific RPMs, usually faster rather than slower. Any battery tool has to use an efficient motor, so that probably means a reduction gearbox. Gearboxes soak up power themselves (this is one reason why transmissions in cars need oil coolers).

So you want a gearbox that gives you... what exactly? The most efficient power transfer? The best RPM for a given job (might not be the most efficient power transfer)? The lightest weight/smallest size (might not last very long!)? Gizmos like multiple ratios (speeds) and hammer action or impact? If you build it from a high-performance steel, with beautifully ground and heat-treated helicoid teeth and expensive bearings, it will be very efficient, but probably unaffordable and way too heavy. If you mould the components from glass-filled plastic of some sort, it will be lightweight and relatively cheap, but it may only last until boxing day (or twelfth night).

My point is simple: given how many conflicting design imperatives there are, it's hard to see how you can make any generalized comparison between battery powered tools. Every tool designer has to plant a flag in the sand for each parameter, and after it's designed and production-worthy prototypes exist, it's still got to be sold effectively to the right target market. To be a bit silly, obviously you wouldn't attempt to use a 4kg battery-powered Hilti SDS to drive woodscrews, but it has huge torque and goes round fairly slowly, so on paper it ought to be dead handy.

Measuring them: You could give each model the same, standardised task, and then you could say "for this, specific task, model X is best." Good, sensible idea. But even that is really fraught:

We know that cheap Lithium-ion cells die/age faster than good ones as they are repeatedly charged/discharged. Good ones aren't cheap. The official ones for my Bosch 10.8V system (and my digital camera, incidentally) vary from 40 to 70 quid (approx).

So you might build a battery system using cheap cells and charger/power management chips that will perform really well when it's new, but which will die 3x or 4x quicker than one with well-matched, high-performance cells from a 6-sigma production process, teamed with a good charge-managing charging system and discharge protection circuitry in the drill.

So do you care most about how well a brand new drill does a task, or how well it's still going after three months on-site, five days a week, in the winter?

Finally, manufacturers aren't always sensible with numbers: Milwaukee used to describe their hand drills using a 10.8V battery system as "12V" drills (or at least Toolstation did, selling them). Technically, a 10.8V battery, in perfect condition, fully charged, probably does measure 12V across its terminals, under no load. The moment you start taking energy from the battery, its output voltage will drop. So you CAN measure 12V - not a word of a lie. But is it meaningful? You decide.

On which drill has the most torque, I have a one-word question: "when?"

Do you mean:

- when it's in the factory's QC lab?
- when it's brand new and fully charged?
- when it's cold?
- when it's hot?
- when it's been used hard for six months?

One thing: I'll bet most of the manufacturers know the answers to all of these!

When a new generation of products was launched in my old industry, the race was on to buy competitors' models and get them into our test labs. We'd check performance (loads of different paremeters), put them in environmental chambers (to speed up the wearing out/ageing process), and finally strip them down completely to get a parts count (reliability) and assess the quality of the design and components used.

We knew exactly how our products compared to the competition - good and bad points, both. That didn't mean we told the customers though. Sometimes we did change stuff, to address specific competitive weaknesses. Sometimes we left well alone.

We also analysed product returns, in great detail. We knew the failure modes and the probability of each failure (based on hard evidence). This also fed back into design improvements. I'm morally certain our competitors did exactly the same, depending on their financial resources.

Bear in mind though that, as a tool manufacturer, you probably don't want a perfectly reliable product -- you want loyal, repeat customers. They need to feel they got good value-for-money, and that they wore their tool out over a good lifetime, rather than it having a manufacture-limited life. So as a company, you don't want your products to go on forever - just for long enough to suit the customer's purchasing cycle.

Given all that, what exactly is the definition of a "good cheap impact driver" per the subject of the thread?
Frankly I don't think there can be one. It's far too complex a problem for just a simple answer.

E.

*There's an argument that 6-sigma reduces overall costs, which I appreciate and have seen in practice. Not going there at this time though.
 
Wuffles":2m4bx6js said:
MMUK":2m4bx6js said:
FWIW, the Ryobi delivers nowhere near the claimed 220Nm of torque, actual test figure was around 172Nm. There's a video of the test on YT somewhere. The Bosch blue and Makita both delivered around 158Nm and the Milwaukee, IIRC, was around 175Nm.

Oh hello you. Do you recall if the others were under specced?


Slightly but only by a few Nm. I think that the manufacturers may be of the opinion that Joe Bloggs Amateur DIYer is less likely to actually measure torque output than a tradesman. Marketing with almost a placebo effect - they'e told it's true and accurate so it must be. The likes of Ryobi are aimed purely at the DIY market.
 
What are peoples thoughts on the 10.xV Makita/Panasonic effort that appear as a twin pack with a drill for Circa £120-140?

in terms of occasional use, nothing too much to drive in, and compact being a bonus etc
 
woodenstuart":buih2rks said:
What are peoples thoughts on the 10.xV Makita/Panasonic effort that appear as a twin pack with a drill for Circa £120-140?

in terms of occasional use, nothing too much to drive in, and compact being a bonus etc


I have the Makita offering, albeit the older version with cluster type batteries, not the new one that came out a few months back with slide on batteries. I find them perfect for kitchens, bathrooms, etc. I originally bought the twin pack but have since added another drill/driver, an impact wrench (ideal for conservatory roof bolts) and tile saw, plus an extra 4 batteries.

Torque is pretty good from the impact driver, on a fully charged battery it will drive home a 4" #10 into softwood without pre-drilling, this does however kill the battery quite quickly. Under normal use though I can easily plasterboard a whole room on one charge, that's several hundred drywall screws into stud.

The drill/drivers are good too. Anything up to an 8mm HSS bit proves no problem. I use mine to drill joists with spade bits up to 32mm - a little slower than the 18v drill but they get the job done.

The impact wrench I only tend to use putting together aluminium roof structures, much easier than messing about with a nut spinner when you're 3m up in the air. It's never seen anything greater than an M10 Nyloc nut.

The water fed tile saw is amazing, saves me digging out the table tile saw and just as powerful.

HTH (hammer)
 
MMUK":7kb99jcg said:
woodenstuart":7kb99jcg said:
What are peoples thoughts on the 10.xV Makita/Panasonic effort that appear as a twin pack with a drill for Circa £120-140?

in terms of occasional use, nothing too much to drive in, and compact being a bonus etc

Torque is pretty good from the impact driver, on a fully charged battery it will drive home a 4" #10 into softwood without pre-drilling, this does however kill the battery quite quickly. Under normal use though I can easily plasterboard a whole room on one charge, that's several hundred drywall screws into stud.

With an impact? You must be popular.
 
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