God Bless America

[dj.]

From Harvard university.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... icide.html

So chances are 40 million of the earlier quoted 80 million gun owners in the US will suffer from some sort of mental illness in their life.

Personally that`s not a thought I`d like to have to live with, so am more than happy to live over this side of the pond.


Regards.

dj.

That's his figures. Others beg to differ.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/12 ... ntly-high/

I`m unsure what your point is there Roger, but personally I find you link more disturbing than mine.
My link says there is a 50% chance of suffering metal illness in a life time.
Where as you link reports a 20% chance in one year.

Whichever figures you wish to believe it doesn`t change the fact that there are many millions of people in the US who any rational person would not like to think has access to a gun if only for their own personal safety, especially when you consider that 8.5 million had serious thoughts on taking their own life in one year. (your link)

 

[Jacob]

Had to google 'Alinskyite' (in the vicar's sermon above).

Very interesting, I'd never heard of him before. Yes I'm probably an 'Alinskyite' :lol:

 

[RogerS]

.....especially when you consider that 8.5 million had serious thoughts on taking their own life in one year. (your link)

But isn't that a red-herring as far as this thread is concerned. If someone wants to commit suicide then there are plenty of ways to do it. One could argue that having a gun and using it is probably a better solution then jumping out in front of a train...considering the inevitable trauma that the driver is going to suffer.

 

[Tom K]

My God consider for a moment the number of crazed loons that will have access to sharp scissors in their lifetime! (homer) Just imagine what those OCD types could do let loose with a nail brush.

 

[Jacob]

My God consider for a moment the number of crazed loons that will have access to sharp scissors in their lifetime! (homer) Just imagine what those OCD types cpold do let loose with a nail brush.

Not a lot compared to what they could do with a gun.
Otherwise we would only need to arm the armed forces with scissors and nail-brushes.

 

[dj.]

.....especially when you consider that 8.5 million had serious thoughts on taking their own life in one year. (your link)

But isn't that a red-herring as far as this thread is concerned. If someone wants to commit suicide then there are plenty of ways to do it. One could argue that having a gun and using it is probably a better solution then jumping out in front of a train...considering the inevitable trauma that the driver is going to suffer.

My thought was that the availability of a gun gave an impulse decision to take ones life a far higher likely hood of success. I`m not saying there isn`t other ways to end your life, but it is the quickest & most efficient i could think of if done on the spur of the moment if the balance of your mind was disturbed & you had easy access to a gun.

But to go back to the original theme of this thread this report makes pretty damming reading.

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm

Regards.


dj.

 

[andersonec]

....
.....you seem to have forgotten the Nuclear bombs dropped in the women and children of Hiroshima (Circa 150,000 killed) and nagasaki Circa 70.000 killed) which was preceded by a firebombing campaign designed to destroy many Japanese cities.
......

Andy

I'm sorry but I think you are out of order with this one. Were you there during World War II ? It's very easy (and indefensible) to take the moral high ground from the comfort of your armchair in 2012.

Not taking the moral high ground Roger, only stating a fact. It grinds on me when folks quote other countries excesses of violence but forget their own, and the atomic bombing of Japanese cities was an excess, Japan never attacked any American soil or targeted American civilians, unless you count two small Aleutian Islands, and they were soon recaptured with the help of the Canadians.
The Rev writes about soldiers in Vietnam holding and sheltering children, good to hear, but he doesn't mention the bombing of civilians in North Vietnam (The USA dropped 8 million tons of bombs dropped in Vietnam in total)

Also to bring his god into what was a discussion about gun culture is also out of order, after stating how perfect his god was/is the Rev needs to re-read his bible (especially the Old Testament) and realise just how much of a genocider his god was, in one swift act he sends floods (Noah's story) to wipe out complete populations and the many minor misdemeanors for which people must be put to death is truly mind boggling, Had the Old Testament been written as an instructional book today it would have been banned. Here is a list of some of the killings carried out by his God http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co. ... bible.html


Back to the gun culture..........
Over 10.8 million guns were sold in the USA in 2011, and if the reason to own a gun (other than sport) is to defend yourself, just how many guns do you need to carry out this task?
(According to Ammoland (a firearms magazine) more guns were purchased last year in the United States than than there are active duty military members in the world’s fourteen largest armies combined) an extract from the site from where the statistic was gathered. http://lewrockwell.com/slavo/slavo93.1.html

Has anyone heard of The Werther Effect? well these have not been on the news. http://rt.com/news/uruguay-clinic-shooting-copycat-199/

Just one more....http://rt.com/usa/news/gunman-shot-mall-oregon-863/

Andy

 

[andersonec]

. For all you Scotsmen out there, the humble Haggis is also banned in the US

So not all bad, then. :lol:

But if one of them should get loose Silver, it doesn't stand a chance :-" BOOM!

Andy

 

[RogerS]

....
.....you seem to have forgotten the Nuclear bombs dropped in the women and children of Hiroshima (Circa 150,000 killed) and nagasaki Circa 70.000 killed) which was preceded by a firebombing campaign designed to destroy many Japanese cities.
......

Andy

I'm sorry but I think you are out of order with this one. Were you there during World War II ? It's very easy (and indefensible) to take the moral high ground from the comfort of your armchair in 2012.

Not taking the moral high ground Roger, only stating a fact. It grinds on me when folks quote other countries excesses of violence but forget their own, and the atomic bombing of Japanese cities was an excess, Japan never attacked any American soil or targeted American civilians, unless you count two small Aleutian Islands, and they were soon recaptured with the help of the Canadians.
The Rev writes about soldiers in Vietnam holding and sheltering children, good to hear, but he doesn't mention the bombing of civilians in North Vietnam (The USA dropped 8 million tons of bombs dropped in Vietnam in total)

Also to bring his god into what was a discussion about gun culture is also out of order, after stating how perfect his god was/is the Rev needs to re-read his bible (especially the Old Testament) and realise just how much of a genocider his god was, in one swift act he sends floods (Noah's story) to wipe out complete populations and the many minor misdemeanors for which people must be put to death is truly mind boggling, Had the Old Testament been written as an instructional book today it would have been banned. Here is a list of some of the killings carried out by his God http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co. ... bible.html


Back to the gun culture..........
Over 10.8 million guns were sold in the USA in 2011, and if the reason to own a gun (other than sport) is to defend yourself, just how many guns do you need to carry out this task?
(According to Ammoland (a firearms magazine) more guns were purchased last year in the United States than than there are active duty military members in the world’s fourteen largest armies combined) an extract from the site from where the statistic was gathered. http://lewrockwell.com/slavo/slavo93.1.html

Has anyone heard of The Werther Effect? well these have not been on the news. http://rt.com/news/uruguay-clinic-shooting-copycat-199/

Just one more....http://rt.com/usa/news/gunman-shot-mall-oregon-863/

Andy

Keep clambering up that slope.

 

[Jake]

Keep clambering up that slope.

Is it nicer at the bottom of the pits?

 

[RogerS]

Keep clambering up that slope.

Is it nicer at the bottom of the pits?

Well, as a lawyer, you should know 8)

Boom - tish! :lol:

 

[Jake]

Keep clambering up that slope.

Is it nicer at the bottom of the pits?

Well, as a lawyer, you should know 8)

Yes, we come across all sorts as clients, and have to do our best for them all. So I've vicariously seen some peaks and troughs I will admit. I'm not sure I'll join you in sneering at those who are not at the bottom - they are much easier to represent in most ways.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"Japan didn't attack American soil or American civilians". Someone seems to have airbrushed Pearl Harbour. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved hundreds of thousands, if not many millions of lives by cutting the war short. My daughter is 17yo. and she has just been to Hiroshima, and she says the majority of anti US feeling is among young people who cannot have known the horror of the event or the aftermath. She made Japanese friends that she will have probably for life - they distinguish between British and American, but hell, if we had had the bomb first , we would have used it.
Even Oppenheimer didn't regret it's use.

 

[jakethebuilder]

As usual, I've been away from the computer for most of this discussion. The core issue, gun control, is certainly a big issue here in the United States. Like many of you, I grew up with shotguns and rifles. Hunting deer, squirrels, and rabbits was common when I was growing up. For the most part, almost everyone I know owns at least a shotgun or .22 rifle. I no longer hunt anything, but there are the occassional nuisance animals, usually raccoons, or dogs that have been thrown out by their owners, and then turn to eating people's chickens or cats, or smaller dogs. I never bought a handgun until our home was burglarized, 12 years ago. It was an impulse purchase, based on the emotion of fear. I am glad to own it, because it is much easier to keep handy at the bedside, if needed in the middle of the night. We live about thirty miles from the city, in a largely wooded area. Still, there have been 3 murders (with handguns) within two miles of my house, in the last 3 years. One was someone crazed on meth, and the other two were the result of someone chasing after someone who burglarized their homes. The reason I own a handgun is purely and simply to defend myself and my family, in case of some senseless attack. I do not think people should strap on pistols and walk around town with them, like in the old western movies. There are many who do believe that way. The problem with gun control, is that there are already so many guns about, that even an outright ban on sales would not remove the existing guns from the streets. As someone said earlier in the thread, most gun owners own multiple guns. Most of the people I know who are avid deer hunters, own at least 2 large bore rifles, a couple of shotguns, and several handguns. Gun ownership is ingrained in our culture, for better or worse. It is a very difficult situation. If it was feasible to get rid of all the guns in the hands of criminals, then many people would favor gun control, but like most people, I don't believe that is possible. Therefore, if guns are made illegal, then only the criminals will still have guns. I wish something would have been done to control handguns fifty years ago. We would certainly be better off today.

 

[Gill]

Is it beyond the capacity of America to at least make a start on addressing the problem by outlawing automatic weapons? I don't see why hunters would need them to bring down deer and raccoons. Alternatively, why not go the whole hog and give everyone hand grenades, flame-throwers and surface to air missiles (just the thing for bringing down the odd mallard or two )?

It beats me how the NRA can advocate the cultivation of an atmosphere of fear by saying that armed guards need to be stationed at schools. What would that teach America's children - that America is a land of hatred and fear? What about the risk of children being caught in the crossfire of a firefight? What if an assailant disarms a guard and gathers yet another weapon which can be used against children?

I like Americans. The vast majority are caring, peaceable and industrious people who hate gratuitous violence. Yet it must be blatantly obvious that the current situation is unacceptable and that action needs to be taken. To my mind, if what you are doing isn't working, you need to do something else. What is worse - inaction which means America will continue to lose its children to murderous gunmen or an attempt to improve the situation? Even if the attempt fails, at least something will have been done to prove that you care! I know all individual parents care for their individual children but I sometimes wonder if America in general cares for its children in general.

Sorry to hear about your home being burgled , Jake. We also have burglars on this side of the Pond but it's reassuring to know that the chances of them coming into our homes equipped with firearms is extremely small. It's highly unlikely that burglary here will ever lead to lives being jeopardised. Very, very few Brits would contemplate arming themselves before retiring for the night because of the threat of burglary.

 

[orchard]

Good post Jake. Sorry to hear that the situation there sounds fubar.

 

[Sportique]

Good post Jake but

I wish something would have been done to control handguns fifty years ago. We would certainly be better off today.

surely this is the nub of the present predicament - stop procrastinating and make a start on dealing with the issue, otherwise in 50 years time you will still be saying the same thing.

Dave

 

[Jacob]

Good post Jake but

I wish something would have been done to control handguns fifty years ago. We would certainly be better off today.

surely this is the nub of the present predicament - stop procrastinating and make a start on dealing with the issue, otherwise in 50 years time you will still be saying the same thing.

Dave

One step at a time. It could take a generation.
On the other hand some far more complicated situations have resolved in a very short time once the start button was pressed e.g. collapse of Communism and reunification of Germany.
Houses built on sand can disappear over-night.

This is for gun toting rev wayne:
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

 

[andersonec]

Hunting deer, squirrels, and rabbits was common when I was growing up. For the most part, almost everyone I know owns at least a shotgun or .22 rifle. I no longer hunt anything, but there are the occassional nuisance animals, usually raccoons, or dogs that have been thrown out by their owners, and then turn to eating people's chickens or cats, or smaller dogs. I never bought a handgun until our home was burglarized, 12 years ago. It was an impulse purchase, based on the emotion of fear. I am glad to own it, because it is much easier to keep handy at the bedside, if needed in the middle of the night.

Jake,

A couple of questions which are not designed to annoy, just want to get some insight as to the reactions and results of the following scenarios.

I can see that where you live, hunting for vermin may be necessary but why deer? were they used for food or just sport?

You state in your post that two of the killings in your area were done by chasing down intruders, were they then shot in the back? if so what happened to the person doing the shooting? surely shooting someone running away is not self defence.

You have a firearm by your bedside and someone who is unarmed enters your home, you wake up and in your half awake state you grab your gun and shoot them, what is the outcome?

An armed intruder is wide awake and on on full alert when he enters your home, he comes face to face with you, in your half awake state, with a gun in your hand, who do you think will fire first? and do you think he would have fired had you been unarmed?

Andy

 

[kirkpoore1]

Andy:

In the vast majority of the US, deer have only two predators--coyotes and cars. And the coyotes don't eat very many of them. They are pests who thrive in a suburban/semi-rural environment. Most states have at least three deer hunting seasons (bow, black powder, and regular season) and the number of deer taken is still declining because hunting is becoming less popular. They do a great deal damage to plants and cause a lot of accidents. In some places you can get all the deer & doe tags you want and fill up the chest freezer with the meat.

Kirk