flattening chisel backs with lapping film

[Jelly]

Film and/or paper is not a good idea IMHO as it's fragile and tends to dub the edges over unless you are very careful. Not to mention slow and expensive.
With a solid plate or stone you can use maximum force and pressure and get the job done in a few minutes. Not water stones obviously (too soft) so has to be diamond plate or oil stone in good condition.

My experience is that paper is more than adequate for the final stages when you want a very sharp edge, i keep a few sheets of P2000 through P6000 abrasive papers kicking around for just that... However 95% of the time there's no need to go beyond the fine oil-stone.

That said, if I was say, carving and needed to frequently sharpen tools to that level of sharpness, I'd probably get a dedicated super-fine stone, in regular use it would work out more economical to do it that way.

 

[barkwindjammer]

Are we nearly there yet ?

 

[frankederveen]

Hi,

I've just sort of finished flattening the back of a new wide narex chisel (40mm) and it was hard work! Getting the lacquer removed was fairly easy with some nail polish remover (not mine . The whole surface of the chisel seems to be ribbed for our flattening pleasure. The bit near the edge is now mostly flat and smooth so the wire edge can be removed easily but it took a good while on a 500 grit shapton waterstone which needed flattening itself every few minutes.

Once polished up a little it seems like quite a good chisel. Initially sharpened at 25 degrees the edge didn't last very long but now at 30 degrees it seems a lot better.

I expect to do a bit more flattening later. The back is mostly flat but not very smooth yet..

Regards,
Frank

 

[Jacob]

Are we nearly there yet ?

Dunno. Too soon to say. :roll:

....
I've just sort of finished flattening the back of a new wide narex chisel (40mm) and it was hard work!....

You should have sent it back. There's a video somewhere of Matthew - he flattens them all before they are sent off, and so he should. Yours was obviously missed - get your money back!
PS I bought a set of Axminster cheapos and non of them needed flattening. The manufacturers have the kit to do this, it isn't rocket science there is no excuse.

....500 grit shapton waterstone which needed flattening itself every few minutes.....

That's ridiculous. An oil stone doesn't need flattening ever (if used carefully) and lasts for life.
I find it really weird that so many people have been persuaded into this daft rituals. Helps sell the gear I suppose.
A huge army of people struggling away with difficult solutions to simple problems, with smart-alec salesmen smirking behind their backs. :roll:

IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!

 

[GazPal]

Hi,

I've just sort of finished flattening the back of a new wide narex chisel (40mm) and it was hard work! Getting the lacquer removed was fairly easy with some nail polish remover (not mine . The whole surface of the chisel seems to be ribbed for our flattening pleasure. The bit near the edge is now mostly flat and smooth so the wire edge can be removed easily but it took a good while on a 500 grit shapton waterstone which needed flattening itself every few minutes.

Once polished up a little it seems like quite a good chisel. Initially sharpened at 25 degrees the edge didn't last very long but now at 30 degrees it seems a lot better.

I expect to do a bit more flattening later. The back is mostly flat but not very smooth yet..

Regards,
Frank

I hope your experience hasn't put you off, as Narex produce some nice chisels, but it's good to know you resolved potential edge retention issues by increasing your honing angle to something more practical. 17 - 25 deg is fine for paring, but definitely not well suited to work involving a chisel:mallet combination and somewhere closer to 35 - 40 deg for mortising. I have to agree with Jacob re the point he made concerning you having to spend so much time flattening a brand new blade.

How far out of flat would you say it was?

For future reference I'd recommend using a much coarser grit (Est 220 grit or less) for roughing-in and then refine the resulting surface using increasingly finer grits.

 

[frankederveen]

Hi,

I hope your experience hasn't put you off, as Narex produce some nice chisels, but it's good to know you resolved potential edge retention issues by increasing your honing angle to something more practical. 17 - 25 deg is fine for paring, but definitely not well suited to work involving a chisel:mallet combination and somewhere closer to 35 - 40 deg for mortising.

When I had it at 25 degrees it was only used for a few minutes to do some light paring on some scrap oak. I know 25 degrees is a very low angle but I wanted to give it a try. At 30 the edge looks much better after the same test and it is still very, very sharp. No complaints there. Since this is such a wide chisel I don't plan to ever use it with a mallet.

How far out of flat would you say it was?

Sorry, I am afraid I may not not have been very clear. English is not my first or second language. The back was quite flat but not very smooth. There were ridges running from side to side all the way to the tip which could be easily seen and felt with a fingernail. It has the same on the upper side but there it doesn't bother me of course. Before I worked on the back it was very hard to get sharp as the burr could not be fully removed.

My other chisels are mostly LN which are obviously a bit more expensive but in this case I think you do get what you pay for. After an evening's work it is now quite a good chisel so I am happy with it now; I just don't think I would want to go through the process again.

For future reference I'd recommend using a much coarser grit (Est 220 grit or less) for roughing-in and then refine the resulting surface using increasingly finer grits.

Thanks, I will keep that in mind; those are probably quite soft and need to be flattened quite often as well? Maybe a coarse diamond stone would help but those are quite $$.

Frank

 

[GazPal]

Hi,

I hope your experience hasn't put you off, as Narex produce some nice chisels, but it's good to know you resolved potential edge retention issues by increasing your honing angle to something more practical. 17 - 25 deg is fine for paring, but definitely not well suited to work involving a chisel:mallet combination and somewhere closer to 35 - 40 deg for mortising.

When I had it at 25 degrees it was only used for a few minutes to do some light paring on some scrap oak. I know 25 degrees is a very low angle but I wanted to give it a try. At 30 the edge looks much better after the same test and it is still very, very sharp. No complaints there. Since this is such a wide chisel I don't plan to ever use it with a mallet.

How far out of flat would you say it was?

Sorry, I am afraid I may not not have been very clear. English is not my first or second language. The back was quite flat but not very smooth. There were ridges running from side to side all the way to the tip which could be easily seen and felt with a fingernail. It has the same on the upper side but there it doesn't bother me of course. Before I worked on the back it was very hard to get sharp as the burr could not be fully removed.

My other chisels are mostly LN which are obviously a bit more expensive but in this case I think you do get what you pay for. After an evening's work it is now quite a good chisel so I am happy with it now; I just don't think I would want to go through the process again.

For future reference I'd recommend using a much coarser grit (Est 220 grit or less) for roughing-in and then refine the resulting surface using increasingly finer grits.

Thanks, I will keep that in mind; those are probably quite soft and need to be flattened quite often as well? Maybe a coarse diamond stone would help but those are quite $$.

Frank

You're very welcome Frank. I can barely handle English, but hadn't realised English was your third language.

What is the width of the chisel in question?

Machining marks don't tend to affect flatness too adversely and unless a blade/iron is seriously out of whack, I only tend to flatten the first 0.5" - 1" (12mm - 25mm) of blades/irons. The remainder of the blade flattens naturally with repeated visits to the stone during the lifespan of the tool.

For roughing-in I'd tend to use a coarse Ezi-Lap/DMT diamond plate if I didn't own a bench grinder, but chose an 8" x 2" (200mm x 50mm) instead of their wider options. This keeps cost down and won't harm utility in any way.

Here's a link for you to check out DMT extra extra coarse diamond plates.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/dmt-dia-shar ... rod460529/

 

[jhwbigley]

IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!

If you'll cover the quid and a bit postage, I'll send you one of the horrible green handled things. And them you can show/time how little work you need to get a new chisel it ready to work.

JH

 

[Jacob]

IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!

If you'll cover the quid and a bit postage, I'll send you one of the horrible green handled things. And them you can show/time how little work you need to get a new chisel it ready to work.

JH

Right ho. PM sent. (hm is the wise? :shock: )

 

[jhwbigley]

JH

Right ho. PM sent. (hm is the wise? :shock: )[/quote]

No PM here?

 

[Jacob]

Right ho. PM sent. (hm is the wise? :shock: )

No PM here?

Oops sorry I sent it to myself somehow. Now on it's way to you

 

[mickthetree]

Cheaper from workshopheaven:
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/DMT ... Stone.html
I had a course waterstone once. ruddy horrible thing. Dished in seconds. Got rid as soon as possible.

 

[Jacob]

Cheaper from workshopheaven:
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/DMT ... Stone.html
I had a course waterstone once. ruddy horrible thing. Dished in seconds. Got rid as soon as possible.

Strewth I hadn't realised they were so expensive. Eze Lap are a lot cheaper.
I might have missed something but what is the point of using an expensive waterstone if you need a £100+ diamond plate to flatten it (every few minutes by some accounts)? Why not use the diamond plate for sharpening instead?
Come to think, what is the point of using using an expensive waterstone at all, if you have to flatten it every few minutes ? Obviously the wrong stone for the job IMHO.

PS Eze Lap here at Rutlands. They've gone up a lot since I bought the same set. I don't think I'd buy them again at that price.
All my trials and errors with various options seems to point back to freehand with oilstones as the only sensible way. I thought this years ago, I wish I'd stuck to it!

 

[Racers]

Hi, Jacob

Is you use the right technique water stones stay flat for some time, and they can be quickly flattened with wet and dry.
They do cut fast so you don't spend as much time sharpening.
You aught to try some.

Pete

 

[mickthetree]

Do ezelap do an extra extra course? Saw one of these in axminster the other day, looks like its got teeth!!

You don't need a £100+ diamond stone to flatten a water stone, but I wouldn't use a budget one as they are not generally flat.

Clearly sharpening has become part of the "hobby" of woodwork. An enjoyable quiet pass time where (mainly) men in sheds can polish bits of steel to their hearts content. Each to their own and I'm sure they enjoy themselves. I surely did. As I have progressed as a hobby woodworker, I have learnt that I enjoy making stuff more than sharpening stuff, but as a hobby I enjoyed learning how to do it using what ever methods were available, including abrasives, oil stones, water stones and diamond stones. Its all learning, education, skill development isn't it! Which can never be a bad thing IMHO.

If it is your trade then the most efficient system possible is where you want to be, but that doesn't fit for everyone.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The best sharpening system for you is the one that suits you and your needs best. End of story. Simple. That's it.

 

[Fromey]

Do ezelap do an extra extra course? Saw one of these in axminster the other day, looks like its got teeth!!

I've not seen greater than "coarse" in any UK online store. However, Dieter Schmid sells "extra coarse" Exe-Lap plates;

http://www.fine-tools.com/ezelap-diasharpener.html

I've read elsewhere that some consider the DMT extra-extra coarse is in fact too coarse and leaves deep scratches. "coarse" plates are sold for flattening stones in sharpening kits, so I've just bought a DMT one from Dick (sniggers) as they are cheaper than UK sources even with the postage factored in;

http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product ... coarse.htm

 

[wem]

Wow! those eze lap have gone up £15 each in the last few months! Get them at fine tools they are £36

 

[mickthetree]

I have a course DMT and find it still takes too long to do what I am after. Maybe someone will have one at the sharpenign demo day. Would like to see one in action.

 

[Jacob]

The best sharpening system for you is the one that suits you and your needs best. End of story. Simple. That's it.

Well, er, yes and no. :shock:

I'm amazed at the soft stone scenario I hadn't realised that's what people were doing - i.e. flattening chisels (which most likely don't need flattening) using expensive soft water stones which don't stay flat :roll: AND then flattening these obviously unsuitable stones on really expensive diamond plates - every few minutes!!
I don't get it at all.

Whose idea was it? I think he should be taken out and flattened.