Diamond sharpening, buying advice !

[johnnyb]

buy a good coarse diamond use it to flatten your waterstones( also to take off nicks) I don't see how that process is a bind. quick rub then sharpen. I use waterstones for any flat tools. actually a waterstone 1000/6000 King. and they last donkeys years(10years +). I flatten with a dmt very coarse diamond. pointless buying loads of nasty diamond stones when you've got the best already!I do think 3000 is a bit coarse but if your happy with the edge don't buy anymore.

 

[powertools]

Serious hobby woodworker here I have the Vaunt stones from ITS I have not tested them with a straight edge and feeler gauges but I can say that they sharpen my tools very well.

 

[D_W]

It's a bind only because it's slower, but I don't have strong thoughts about it. Just literally started with a 800 and 6000 king. The 800 needs to be soaked, the leveling is sloppy (and the stone is sloppy to use). Went to shaptons (those need to be scuffed once in a while as they glaze over unless they're soaked (but soak only briefly based on the instructions with them - 15 minutes) and then when they're a little slurry-ish, they need to be leveled, too.

At some point, I got a washita and a fine india stone and that was the end of that. You open it, you use it, done. The washita is finer than the 6000 king, in a cold shop in the winter, it doesn't matter (you don't get wet hands), the oil keeps tools from rusting no matter how much you think you wiped off of the tools, and the fine india is faster than the 800 king and is dirt cheap.

Washita is kind of like having two stones - with heavy pressure, it's a medium stone. with light pressure, it's very fine.

(I started with a guide, too -oilstones, especially narrower ones, maybe not so great with a guide).

Pictures of what I'm talking about - washita, heavy pressure:

Washita, light pressure:

8k waterstone (note not so much the bevel scratches, but how even the edge is and how crisp)

There is one concession - A2 can't handle the washita - it pulls carbides out of A2 tools.

V11 has no issue with a washita, though. They both have chromium carbides (A2 probably has molybdenum or manganese in some quantity to make it air harden), so I don't know what A2 hates so much about washita stones (it's fine with fine ark stones, but they're too slow).

So, this is one explanation (ever sharpen carving tools on king stones? that's another issue), but there's a million variations of this - you can use a fine india stone and follow with autosol on wood and just toss the wood if it gets contaminated.

It does take a diamond stone of some sort to condition the india stone once in a while and keep it flat if you're going to flatten things on it (this is an iron finished on dursol -sibling of autosol. the pair is also faster than king stones, and no real maintenance)

(the washita also follows one of the cheap diamond stones really well)

 

[Adam W.]

I love sharpening threads.

 

[mikej460]

They're starting to get to me like the trim phone impersonator on the Joke Thread

 

[D_W]

Separately, since this thread is about cheap diamond hones - to compare to the finish edges above, here are two pictures I'd taken months ago when getting one of these $20 stones (I may have ordered two, can't remember now, but if i did, just to see if they were similar flatness).

400 grit grooves (these quiet down - any electroplate stone loses the big diamonds if there are any - they get pulled off for sticking their neck up too far when the reaper swings the scythe, so to speak). Ignore the red arrow. Pretty violent.

And 1000 grit.

 

[Jacob]

It's a bind only because it's slower, but I don't have strong thoughts about it. Just literally started with a 800 and 6000 king. The 800 needs to be soaked, the leveling is sloppy (and the stone is sloppy to use). Went to shaptons (those need to be scuffed once in a while as they glaze over unless they're soaked (but soak only briefly based on the instructions with them - 15 minutes) and then when they're a little slurry-ish, they need to be leveled, too.

At some point, I got a washita and a fine india stone and that was the end of that. You open it, you use it, done. The washita is finer than the 6000 king, in a cold shop in the winter, it doesn't matter (you don't get wet hands), the oil keeps tools from rusting no matter how much you think you wiped off of the tools, and the fine india is faster than the 800 king and is dirt cheap.

Washita is kind of like having two stones - with heavy pressure, it's a medium stone. with light pressure, it's very fine.

(I started with a guide, too -oilstones, especially narrower ones, maybe not so great with a guide).

Pictures of what I'm talking about - washita, heavy pressure:
View attachment 122880

Washita, light pressure:
View attachment 122881
8k waterstone (note not so much the bevel scratches, but how even the edge is and how crisp)
View attachment 122882

There is one concession - A2 can't handle the washita - it pulls carbides out of A2 tools.

V11 has no issue with a washita, though. They both have chromium carbides (A2 probably has molybdenum or manganese in some quantity to make it air harden), so I don't know what A2 hates so much about washita stones (it's fine with fine ark stones, but they're too slow).

So, this is one explanation (ever sharpen carving tools on king stones? that's another issue), but there's a million variations of this - you can use a fine india stone and follow with autosol on wood and just toss the wood if it gets contaminated.

It does take a diamond stone of some sort to condition the india stone once in a while and keep it flat if you're going to flatten things on it (this is an iron finished on dursol -sibling of autosol. the pair is also faster than king stones, and no real maintenance)View attachment 122884

(the washita also follows one of the cheap diamond stones really well)

That's very interesting D_W keep up the good work!
What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Droogs]

looks like arty pictures of OSB and a thatch roof

 

[D_W]

What exactly are trying to say?

go back to using dull tools, Jacob?

 

[D_W]

looks like arty pictures of OSB and a thatch roof

Yessir - diamond is violet, it makes metal look like clay, dirt and fiber pieces.

 

[pgrbff]

I hate sharpening. I use an Atoma, very flat, but only to flatten my waterstones.
My big black DMT is no where near flat and I can't believe how long it took me to realise that was why it was taking me so long to sharpen.
If I had the money I would definitely try some Naniwa diamond stones, for sharpening rather than flattening the water stones.

 

[pe2dave]

I couldn't get exited about .3mm?
Buy good ones, but not crazy expensive, you'll only fret about them. I bought from Axi and am quite happy.
3 stones, as per Paul Sellers, then a bit of leather on a block of wood in the vice.

 

[Jacob]

Plenty of options and conflicting opinions offered in this thread!
How it works:
someone starts with oil stones and finds it slightly difficult, or maybe not - it might be their planing technique, they don't really know
they read millions of pages of stuff about magic sharpening techniques so they buy a jig for starters
the jig makes excellent logical sense but not 100% satisfactory as they only work on very flat stones
so they try to flattening an oil stone - not easy
and/or they buy an "improved" later version of the jig
still not brilliant so they look at alternative stones, water stones first
water stones not convenient and need flattening
so they buy diamond stone to flatten the water stone
at which point they may discover it makes more sense to use the diamond for sharpening direct and dump the water stone
so they up-grade the diamond stone, or take a diversion into looking at alternative water stones
they look at at grit sizes - what used to be just coarse/medium/fine is now a bewildering selection available in various specifications to alternative standards
they look at stropping with diamond dust, jewellers rouge etc etc
suddenly discover scary sharp! - cheap, easy, reliable, but actually not that convenient
buy a Pro edge, or a tormek, or blue their edges on a grindstone, or......etc
by which time they may have spent several hundred pounds, even thousands

but the good news is their sharpening and other woodwork techniques have improved enormously, after all those hours of trial and error fiddling about, so they are in control, no longer beginners!

as a result - one day they dig out their very first 2/6 Woolworths oil stone and have a go - much to their surprise it seems to work really well! Blades tend to come out cambered slightly but this is good, who needs a dead straight edge? Nobody.

Little by little they dump all the other gear and get back to basics!

One major stumbling block in the process is the endlessly repeated (correct) advice in every book and article to avoid rounding "over" i.e. not to steadily increase the sharpening angle to get an edge quicker.
This is widely interpreted (incorrectly) as meaning the bevel should be flat - which is quite difficult to do freehand.
But in fact rounding "under" is perfectly OK, whereby the edge is at the desired angle 30º etc, but the bevel is curved back from this. This is unavoidable freehand, but the process of deliberately dipping the blade makes the process easier, faster and more relaxed.

I like sharpening, it makes a little break from the work and makes it go much better. A little and often, like sharpening a pencil and about as difficult.

PS a good demo on-line is Paul Sellars' but you can substitute cheap oil stones for his expensive Ezelap diamonds.

 

[doctor Bob]

I like a straight edge.

 

[Jacob]

I like a straight edge.

Feel free you are under no obligation!

 

[D_W]

Plenty of options and conflicting opinions offered in this thread!
How it works:
someone starts with oil stones and finds it slightly difficult, or maybe not - it might be their planing technique, they don't really know
they read millions of pages of stuff about magic sharpening techniques so they buy a jig for starters
the jig makes excellent logical sense but not 100% satisfactory as they only work on very flat stones
so they try to flattening an oil stone - not easy
and/or they buy an "improved" later version of the jig
still not brilliant so they look at alternative stones, water stones first
water stones not convenient and need flattening
so they buy diamond stone to flatten the water stone
at which point they may discover it makes more sense to use the diamond for sharpening direct and dump the water stone
so they up-grade the diamond stone, or take a diversion into looking at alternative water stones
they look at at grit sizes - what used to be just coarse/medium/fine is now a bewildering selection available in various specifications to alternative standards
they look at stropping with diamond dust, jewellers rouge etc etc
suddenly discover scary sharp! - cheap, easy, reliable, but actually not that convenient
buy a Pro edge, or a tormek, or blue their edges on a grindstone, or......etc
by which time they may have spent several hundred pounds, even thousands

but the good news is their sharpening and other woodwork techniques have improved enormously, after all those hours of trial and error fiddling about, so they are in control, no longer beginners!

as a result - one day they dig out their very first 2/6 Woolworths oil stone and have a go - much to their surprise it seems to work really well! Blades tend to come out cambered slightly but this is good, who needs a dead straight edge? Nobody.

Little by little they dump all the other gear and get back to basics!

One major stumbling block in the process is the endlessly repeated (correct) advice in every book and article to avoid rounding "over" i.e. not to steadily increase the sharpening angle to get an edge quicker.
This is widely interpreted (incorrectly) as meaning the bevel should be flat - which is quite difficult to do freehand.
But in fact rounding "under" is perfectly OK, whereby the edge is at the desired angle 30º etc, but the bevel is curved back from this. This is unavoidable freehand, but the process of deliberately dipping the blade makes the process easier, faster and more relaxed.

I like sharpening, it makes a little break from the work and makes it go much better. A little and often, like sharpening a pencil and about as difficult.

PS a good demo on-line is Paul Sellars' but you can substitute cheap oil stones for his expensive Ezelap diamonds.

Now we have a fiction role play that someone will have to reenact.

 

[doctor Bob]

Feel free you are under no obligation!

It's a bit like driving an old banger with dents and scratches, but reliable or driving a newish car that looks good.
As I've got older I have found that both have a purpose.

 

[Fitzroy]

Plenty of options and conflicting opinions offered in this thread!
How it works:
someone starts with oil stones and finds it slightly difficult, or maybe not - it might be their planing technique, they don't really know
they read millions of pages of stuff about magic sharpening techniques so they buy a jig for starters
the jig makes excellent logical sense but not 100% satisfactory as they only work on very flat stones
so they try to flattening an oil stone - not easy
and/or they buy an "improved" later version of the jig
still not brilliant so they look at alternative stones, water stones first
water stones not convenient and need flattening
so they buy diamond stone to flatten the water stone
at which point they may discover it makes more sense to use the diamond for sharpening direct and dump the water stone
so they up-grade the diamond stone, or take a diversion into looking at alternative water stones
they look at at grit sizes - what used to be just coarse/medium/fine is now a bewildering selection available in various specifications to alternative standards
they look at stropping with diamond dust, jewellers rouge etc etc
suddenly discover scary sharp! - cheap, easy, reliable, but actually not that convenient
buy a Pro edge, or a tormek, or blue their edges on a grindstone, or......etc
by which time they may have spent several hundred pounds, even thousands

but the good news is their sharpening and other woodwork techniques have improved enormously, after all those hours of trial and error fiddling about, so they are in control, no longer beginners!

as a result - one day they dig out their very first 2/6 Woolworths oil stone and have a go - much to their surprise it seems to work really well! Blades tend to come out cambered slightly but this is good, who needs a dead straight edge? Nobody.

Little by little they dump all the other gear and get back to basics!

One major stumbling block in the process is the endlessly repeated (correct) advice in every book and article to avoid rounding "over" i.e. not to steadily increase the sharpening angle to get an edge quicker.
This is widely interpreted (incorrectly) as meaning the bevel should be flat - which is quite difficult to do freehand.
But in fact rounding "under" is perfectly OK, whereby the edge is at the desired angle 30º etc, but the bevel is curved back from this. This is unavoidable freehand, but the process of deliberately dipping the blade makes the process easier, faster and more relaxed.

I like sharpening, it makes a little break from the work and makes it go much better. A little and often, like sharpening a pencil and about as difficult.

PS a good demo on-line is Paul Sellars' but you can substitute cheap oil stones for his expensive Ezelap diamonds.

I like your story Jacob and think it applies to many things in woodworking, I expect learning in a formal environment would enable an individual to persevere with the option they are first shown through to the point of being skilful. But when learning through the web we walk a less obvious path, and likely on many occasions end up back at the beginning understanding what we were doing wrong and able to self correct.

My personal journey started similar but as I'm a cheapskate I got to a place with a guide, wet and dry paper and an old tile that works for me and I stopped there. Perhaps if it was my living I would need to get more efficient or would feel the cost of lots of sandpaper, but as a hobbyist I'm happy I have something that works for me and that is good enough.

 

[Jacob]

It's a bit like driving an old banger with dents and scratches, but reliable or driving a newish car that looks good.
As I've got older I have found that both have a purpose.

Years ago I lent my old banger to a neighbour who was desperate to move some stuff, his posh something or other wouldn't start. Mine was a scruffy old Bedford CA van, £100, reliable, just three speed which was common in the 70s. He came back mission accomplished and said how surprisingly nice it was to drive; good visibility, radio, comfortable, good heater, brakes etc. Went out and bought one!
The only drawback was the low speed - 80mph max or it'd overheat.

 

[D_W]

I think just about everyone would be lying if they said they spent less on sharpening overall than they would've with paper - unless they intentionally cut paper.

Paper is fine if you're sharpening occasionally. It doesn't really meet limitations until you're sharpening this like carving tools, or until something like a small stone would be more convenient (even then, you could just put PSA paper on wood and call it a stone).

One of the great things about shaving with a straight razor is once you have your kit, the spending stops.

However, if you got a gillette tech and astra razor blades and changed them once a week, it would take about 30 years for the proposition to be break even cost-wise, as the straight razor needs a good strop, a good linen and a decent hone, and all of that adds up to about $300 (going cheap on the linen and strop is a bad idea). This is kind of like that, and the number of people who have bought one india stone and a leather weightlifter's belt is far fewer than admitted online.