Fitting drawers - wider at the back?

[woodbrains]

I was taught to make the drawer pocket slightly wider at the back and the drawer too. The aim was to have a force fit of the drawer into the pocket which gradually 'lets go' about 1/4 the way in, the rest of the travel is smooth and free. When the drawer is used, it can be pulled out about 2/3-3/4 the way out and then stops. This might be contrived or elegant, depending on your point of view! it might be unusual, but not unheard of. Mike.

Mike, I'd forgotten all about that configuration you've outlined. Now that you've reminded me of it I can't recall where, when, and how I came across a similar or matching description. I don't think I've ever attempted to make drawer openings and drawers like that, although it's possible at some point in my career I've inadvertently ended up with the layout because of what are sometimes euphemistically known as 'calculatory anomalies', ha, ha. Slainte.

Hello,

It Might have origins in the Carl Malmsten workshop. Krenov was taught by Malmsten and he never claimed to have invented anything, but used the method. Is it something done in Sweden and places in Scandinavia?

This is a long shot, but Malmseten was a fan of English Arts and Crafts, particularly Ernest Gimson, Peter Waals, et al.could there be origins here? Malmsten was influenced by an exhibition he saw of this English work before or became recognised in England as the fine thing it was?

Mike.

 

[mtr1]

Is it possible you are just measuring wear, the drawer runners/guides that you have shown look like pine, and the drawer sides hardwood. I've done quite a bit of restoring in the past and have had to replace pine runners/guides because the oak sides have worn them out. I was taught to make the drawer runners and guides square and the drawer with not much slop or it will bind. Not a how to, just how I do.

 

[AndyT]

Is it possible you are just measuring wear, the drawer runners/guides that you have shown look like pine, and the drawer sides hardwood. I've done quite a bit of restoring in the past and have had to replace pine runners/guides because the oak sides have worn them out. I was taught to make the drawer runners and guides square and the drawer with not much slop or it will bind. Not a how to, just how I do.

I'm sure it's not just wear. I measured more than I photographed on both pieces and the pattern was consistent on the most and least used drawers.
Neither piece has very much wear though there is some, but only in the downward direction, not sideways.

 

[Jacob]

....
It Might have origins in the Carl Malmsten workshop. Krenov was taught by Malmsten and he never claimed to have invented anything, but used the method. ...

I know Krenov is supposed have been taught by Malmsten but this is only ever hinted at in his writings and certainly isn't apparent in his products; everything looks like something made by someone untaught, knowing very little about traditional woodwork and just making it up as he went along.
This could account for his very limited output - nothing but little "tobacco" cabinets. I think he hit on a winning formula early and stuck to it, not risking venturing into other areas, not having the ability.
If you google Malmsten furniture you will find a few tobacco cabinets amongst a large range of furniture all of a much higher order of skill and design than anything from St Jim.
I wonder what the truth is.

 

[David C]

Krenov learned in the Karl Malmsten school in Stockholm, so it seems highly likely that he learned his "let go" technique there, as it is a wonderfully esoteric technique.

Wells and Hooper state "the whole depth of a drawer must accurately fit the opening, and it should gradually tighten as it is withdrawn. To effect this the carcase is made slightly larger at the back, both in length and width". Modern Cabinet Work first published 1908.

I learned from Alan Peters that he would plane and sand, the internal sides of solid cabinets, some weeks after assembly, to ensure straightness. This would also create a little extra width at the back, as the shavings were started about 1 inch from the front edge so as not to damage finish.

Richard, perhaps you read one of my books or articles once? I have been teaching this method for the last 30 years. I believe that it was used by some but not all of the Arts and Crafts makers, for their best exhibition work. However this is very difficult to verify. The Barnsley workshop tell me that Alec Mcurdy used it, but not all Edward's makers did.

It's a great technique, well worth trying. If all else fails there is nothing wrong with a parallel sided drawer which runs sweetly without racking and twisting!

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[woodbrains]

I know Krenov is supposed have been taught by Malmsten but this is only ever hinted at in his writings and certainly isn't apparent in his products; everything looks like something made by someone untaught, knowing very little about traditional woodwork and just making it up as he went along.
This could account for his very limited output - nothing but little "tobacco" cabinets. I think he hit on a winning formula early and stuck to it, not risking venturing into other areas, not having the ability.
If you google Malmsten furniture you will find a few tobacco cabinets amongst a large range of furniture all of a much higher order of skill and design than anything from St Jim.
I wonder what the truth is.

Hello,

Without a doubt, there is no truth to be found in this bunkum!

Mike.

 

[Mr T]

I think Robert Ingham makes his drawer pockets slightly tapered and fits his drawers to achieve the "letting go" effect. But we are talking fractions of a millimetre, not the 3-4mm Andy has measured. The problem with taking measurements from old furniture is that you have to allow for wear and movement.

Chris

 

[David C]

I agree with Chris, the front/back difference is very small.

A4 (containing) drawers are made on my short, 5 day course. The back of the opening is about 0.2 mm wider than the front.

A drawer which glides effortlessly and then tightens up about 2/3 of the way out, warning one not to drop it on the floor, is sublime, practical and not as difficult as one might imagine.

best wishes,
David

 

[AndyT]

I've now looked closely at one more piece of Victorian furniture and the extra width at the back is even greater. The drawers can be swivelled from side to side before they hit the guides. It's not wear - that only happens where the wood touches!
Now, these pieces are reasonable ordinary quality, not the very finest, so what I reckon is that this was a quick method to make usable drawers which needed no extra fiddling time but would reliably look neat at the front. Not as nice as the sort of drawer that tightens up as they are withdrawn, but affordable for the ordinary people.

Higher standard work needs more care. Who'd have thought it!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Richard, perhaps you read one of my books or articles once? I have been teaching this method for the last 30 years. David Charlesworth

David, perhaps that is a source I came across for a description of that drawer and drawer opening configuration. Over the years I've read many of your articles, and always judged them to be useful and informative, even if from time to time my approach to accomplishing a task wouldn't (doesn't/ didn't) necessarily quite follow your methods. But going back to the drawer configuration question, and assuming your article on the topic was one I read and took note of, I do feel that I'd come across a description of it before somewhere, not that that matters really. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

I agree with Chris, the front/back difference is very small.

A4 (containing) drawers are made on my short, 5 day course. The back of the opening is about 0.2 mm wider than the front.

A drawer which glides effortlessly and then tightens up about 2/3 of the way out, warning one not to drop it on the floor, is sublime, practical and not as difficult as one might imagine.

best wishes,
David

I can't say I can recall ever dropping a drawer to the floor by pulling it out to far. Do other people find this a problem?
Having it tighten doesn't sound too good an idea - if you pull it too hard, or if the weather changes, isn't it going to jam tight?

 

[Racers]

Thank god you are perfect Jacob, I am not, I have done it several times.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Thank god you are perfect Jacob, I am not, I have done it several times.

Pete

I didn't realise drawer pulling was such a skilled operation!
What about fixing some sort of stops then? Shouldn't be difficult and much better than the tightening idea.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I can't say I can recall ever dropping a drawer to the floor by pulling it out to far. Do other people find this a problem?

Ah, Jacob, I suspect you might lack experience of people (visitors) at exhibitions and shows. I have experienced visitors to such shows, as well as owners of furniture in their homes do exactly that. In more than one case the drawer 'yanker' assumed the drawer would stop at some point because of the 'expected' metal drawer slide. Embarrassment for them, especially if or when asked if they were willing to pay for the damage.

You've probably heard the saying which goes something like: You'll never make anything ***** proof, because there's always a dumber ***** out there ready to demonstrate that your *****-proofing, er ... huhm, wasn't. Slainte.

 

[JanetsBears]

Thank god you are perfect Jacob, I am not, I have done it several times.

Pete

I didn't realise drawer pulling was such a skilled operation!
What about fixing some sort of stops then? Shouldn't be difficult and much better than the tightening idea.

Okay, okay, I'll add "fitting some sort of stops" to my list of things to do over the bank holiday weekend. We've got a pine kitchen island and the wider drawers on the sides, where we keep cutlery, always feels like they're going to drop out when opened. We've had it about 10 years and I've been going to fix it in some way since a couple of days after we got it delivered - this weekend it will happen! :?

Chris

 

[Owl]

Thank god you are perfect Jacob, I am not, I have done it several times.

Pete

I didn't realise drawer pulling was such a skilled operation!
What about fixing some sort of stops then? Shouldn't be difficult and much better than the tightening idea.

This made my day Jacob I had to laugh .... keep it up my friend

 

[Racers]

I have a big draw full of screws under my bench that I fitted with a stop on the back that catches on a batten.
It turns so you can pull the draw all the way out if you remove enough stuff to get to it, and it needs clearance at the top so wastes space.
So not a practical solution.
I didn't fancy a very heavy draw falling on my foot.

Pete

 

[mouppe]

There are times when you want to pull the drawers out, for example when moving the furniture around. So if you put a stop in, bevel the rear of the drawer sides and back so as to be able to lift the drawer out.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Sometimes the perceived length of a drawer is different to its size in reality. Often they are shorter by quite a margin than would be suggested by the depth of the cabinet, for instance. I've seen many a drawer fall to the floor, when it emerged from the pocket sooner than expected. Let go is a more elegant way of preventing this than stops. Another subtle way is, as per Alan Peters, who made his drawer back morticed into the sides, some way forwards of the drawer length. The idea was to maintain more drawer in the pocket, whilst revealing all the drawer interior when pulled out. Obviously the drawer operator stopped pulling the drawer when the back came into the line of sight, and there was still some drawer sides inside the pocket to prevent accidents. I've used this method once or twice and I think it is very logical and sweet in operation. No stops!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Another subtle way is, as per Alan Peters, who made his drawer back morticed into the sides, some way forwards of the drawer length. The idea was to maintain more drawer in the pocket, ..

Effectively putting a partition into the drawer to make it shorter internally.
Slightly bonkers, but then if people really do have this prob of drawers dropping on to their toes. :roll:
What about marking up the sides with felt tip so you know when to stop pulling the drawer out? Or a little catch and a bell?

I've had a go at drawer pulling today (wearing steel toe cap boots just in case) and what I've found is that after about half way the drawer tilts down/forwards slightly - giving plenty of warning that the **** is about to hit the fan (or toes in this case).
Maybe it's just another case of "practice practice"?