EZ Smart Guide / Festool Guide. Are there any others?

[ByronBlack]

ecp - the festool rails have rubber strips and this is adequate once laid onto the wood to produce an error free cut, what a 'bridge' or an MFT does it make repeatability that bit easier and brings the work height up to a more natural level.

EDIT:

 

[Vormulac]

Please can we have less of the name-calling and hair-pulling in this thread, it serves absolutely no purpose other than to antagonise.

All companies - that's *all* companies - make preferential statements about their own products, to assume otherwise is absurdly naive.
The purpose of this thread has been discussed and yet it has collapsed into yet another EZ pro/con session. Those who use the EZ system (myself included) think it's great, those that don't choose something else and think that's great - hooray! Everyone is happy.

Colin has offered to do a review of the EZ system when he gets time, I am looking forward to that, I'm only a hobbyist so I'm sure I'll learn a lot.

Now for Heaven's sake can we all talk about something else or return to the OP if anyone has anything valid to offer.

V.

(sorry, it's Friday and I've had a b*tch of a week. rant over)

 

[Anonymous]

Hi V

It's almost the weekend.

The point I was trying to make was that, afaik, of all the companies that come onto this forum EZ are the ONLY one whose sole contribution is to promote their own product.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[engineer one]

in all this furore, everybody promoting themselves have forgotten the real reason for the thread :?

the question was how many different rail systems are there, and what can they do for me??

lost in all this is that dino has provided a system which may well be the dogs b*******s, but it does rely on the quality of the saw used, and since it is promoted as a universal product,people will see it as a cheap option.

festo, bosch, mafell, makita et al have designed their rail systems around specific products which they sell. by their nature therefore they are somewhat more expensive.

however what you are buying is very much your consideration of the saw itself. for instance heavy base plate, plunge capability, proper riving knife,
depth of cut and so on. the quality and ability of the guide rail is somewhat secondary, as scrit has said, basically you are looking at a product which is only usable with the saw.

in addition, the two systems i know about very well, mafell and festo have specific design capabilities, for instance shadow cutting on the mafell.
they both have relatively decent blades, and very well designed and made base plates. these are then designed into a co planar relation ship with the guide.

ez however is designed to be universal, and usable for other items, for instance routers. it is obviously initially designed for site work, even more than the other brands i know.

however the saw purchase is i feel less considered than perhaps with a combination system. personally i feel that people have a saw, and then look for the rail system afterwards, which means that many people will
buy a cheap saw, be unhappy with its performance, and then look for another solution.

we all know that until the very latest developments at the lower end of the market, and in particular the saw which seems to be able to cut metal and wood, i think it is called revolution, most cheap saws have pressed base plates which by their nature are difficult to get accurate, and this must reflect when using the guide system. in addition the blades obviously are cheap and cheerful, and as has been said can be uprated. but then you come back to my old argument, have you done all the sums, and will this kit stand up against proper comparison price for price. i am not saying no, but it is a proper consideration.

finally i know that colin c bought his rail system after coming to see how my dewalt table saw, a dw744, fitted within a space similar to the one he was intending to use. i also know he is happy with it, but he is a professional who will adapt his methods of working somewhat to accomodate things, whereas the amateur tends to take what comes and then worry.

what are the advantages of the rails system, any system??

space saving, you can work within the board sizes you are cutting, allowing for walking around them.

moveability, they are ALL portable. hence good for site work.

storage, they have a small footprint, thus will take up less, van/workshop room during the majority of their life when they are not being used.
no one seems to have considered a time audit on the time they actually use the saw over a week or month.
although having said they have a small footprint, a 2400 bar is a real pain to store and ensure that you keep it straight and flat.

down sides.
joining the strips,
repeatability, no matter what clips you use, there will be some error
over time, where as a fixed table/panel saw fence is more accurate on a repeat basis.
keeping the rails flat with abuse.
keeping the rubber strips etc on and replacing them if
the manufacturer goes bust
movement of the saw on the rail if not specific.

anyway lets get away from name calling and rampant product placement, unless we are all gonna get a free one :twisted: for enduring what has been a really bad attempt to intimidate people.

paul :wink:

 

[ecp]

Engineer, I wholeheartedly concur.

The original poster said

I'm looking into ordering the EZ Smart guide system from the states but I wanted to see if there are any alternatives closer to home. I mention Festool in the subject mainly to say that I've seen, I like, I have no chance of affording!

Can anyone suggest any others or is this the best option?

I am as probably as guilty as anyone of getting slightly away from his original question.

But your comments beg the questions - which have not been asked of him -
Does he already have a circular saw, and if so which one?
Does he want his rail system to be capable of use with tools other than a circular saw, and if so what tools?
What sort of work does he want to do with it?
How regularly will he use it?
What other tools/machines (if any) does he have.

Like the OP I have little experience of rail systems other than 'research' but depending on the answers to these questions, surely the availability of rail systems to suggest as alternatives to the 2 he has looked at would possibly be restricted. For example I now know that Hilti offer a guide rail for their saw, but if you want to use it with other tools I believe this option is not available.
Also, I have been told that you can use the Hilti saw on a Festool rail and vice versa, apparently the Worx saw will also work on both rails, and that the EZ people are bringing out a rail soon that will work with both without using an additional plate for mounting the saw.

So - until the OP answers these questions (if he so feels inclined) perhaps most of this thread is somewhat academic with regard to the original post :wink:

 

[ivan]

I hope no one feels intimidated by me; if so, please accept apologies. By the way, My sister in law is American and lives in NY state, and is quite nice really for all that....I appreciate the cultural difference, and was musing that becuse of that difference EZ's presentation tended to press my 'warning buttons'.

The last thing I want to do is have a slanging match. Although I have a Mafell saw/rail, I have no idea which system is 'best'. I really want to learn something about bridge mounting and its limitations, because positioning track for an 8' rip accurately is not a trivial task. Mostly it doesn't matter, you cut oversize and trim on the sawbench. However, (EZ/FTool)MFT supporters seem to suggest maybe I'm missing a trick, which I'd like to examine closely. As we can't see a system, we have to 'examine with words'. Having a Mafell & guide I'd most likely make my own bridge style mounting for it, so it would be helpful to find out of the outcome is likely to be worth the effort.

 

[Dan Clark]

I'm an American. My opinion as an American is that Dino's hyperbole is way over the top! While I found that Festools broad ranging solution fit my needs better than the EZ's more limited solution, I decided not to buy EZ long before I finalized on Festool. I was completely turned off by EZ's overblown marketing statements.

While American's can be enthusiastic, you'll find that most Americans can be fairly discerning. American TV, radio, news, and magazine ads are constantly blaring that their product is the "best". A very large number of Americans CANNOT stand that kind of advertising. We automatically assume that the product is extremely poor quality if it requires high-pressure marketing tactics.

Americans may be noisy (enthusiastic), but we don't like BS. I would strongly encourage you NOT to give Dino, Burt or anyone else associated with the EZ company the benefit of the doubt. That pretty much goes for for any company rep. Challenge their statements, require proof, evaluate the information, and make an informed decision. Please don't take marketing hype at face value.

Regards,

Dan.

Dan,
I visited the Festool forum and I have noticed that you are a moderator.
We need a good review of both systems and not your opinion.

Congratulations on your first post! Saying "we" is quite astounding since your only post in this forum has been to attack me.

FYI... I haven't been a FOG moderator for awhile. I helped Matthew for a couple of months as the "Dealer Moderator" to reduce some of the vendor noise. After that was done, I went back to being what I am here - just another tool user.

Dan.

p.s., I'm reporting your post to this forum's moderator.

 

[Dan Clark]

Should anyone wish to check my status on the Festool Owner's Group forum, here's the link: http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php. Note that Administrators and Moderators, Festool Dealers, and Festool Employees are clearly identified so that you can identify a person's affiliation to the forum or Festool.

BTW, since neWood brought this up, you should know that Dino is an Administrator/Moderator on the Sawmill Creek forum. This means that you will get the following message if you try to "Ignore" him:

Sorry Dino Makropoulos is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

However, NOWHERE in his signature or on the forum does it indicate that he owns the EZ company or is a moderator/admin in that forum. Please proceed with caution.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[ByronBlack]

Dan, I wouldn't worry about your credentials, I'm also a member of the festool forum and a festool owner and my opinions as well as your are just as valid as anyon'es. neWood - we do want opinions on this forum, it's how forums work.

Can we all just cool it though, it's getting tedious, we all recognise that both systems and others are good and have their own qualities, I don't think we should continue with the EZ v FT debate unless the OP wishes them to be compared directly.

 

[Burt Waddell]

Dan has chosen to question the creditability of DIno and myself. I only have a couple of comments. First when I compare EZ and Festool equipment, I am speaking as a fulltime professional woodworker who has both the Festool saw and MFT in my Shop as well as the EZ tables.

Dino also has some Festool tools in his shop.

Dan's tag line doesn't include any EZ Smart equipment.

Burt

 

[Gill]

How I loved trips to the circus when I was little. I really laughed at the antics of the clowns.

Then I grew up.

Gill

 

[Paul Chapman]

Well said, Gill. These slanging matches which take place every time someone asks a question about saw rail systems really are getting very tedious. I think I'll just stop reading them.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Dan Clark]

Well said, Gill. These slanging matches which take place every time someone asks a question about saw rail systems really are getting very tedious. I think I'll just stop reading them.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Paul,

Unfortunately you are correct. I've already posted a trolling complaint to the moderator. Hopefully he will close this thread as a complete waste of bandwidth.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Burt Waddell]

Here is a link to several pictures of three of the tables that I have put together. They represent 3 different styles and are not the most recent tables but they do show more on usage than most of my recent photos. Please there is info about each photo just below the photo.

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.j ... 0cw86&Ux=0

Thanks

Burt

 

[ByronBlack]

Burt, thats quite interesting. But I still can't see what this does differently to the MFT. It seems you have gone to quite a lot of lengths to add functionality in the forms of a delta unifence, incra mitre guage, various extensions and jigs.. in it's 'naked' state can the bridge/power whatsit do what you are doing in the photo's? If so - why all the extra stuff, what else does that bring to the functionality? Thanks for sharing the photo's.

 

[Burt Waddell]

Byron,

Let me try to do a side by side comparison of the MFT and the PBB. Also please note that all of the photos that I posted were pre-PBB photos.

Using the MFT, the rail has to be raised after each cut to reposition the board and the saw has to be set aside.

With the PBB, We use a bit longer rail and the rail pivots on each end. You make the cut and leave the saw on the end of the rail furthest away from you. You then raise the rail and reposition the board. While the rail is still up, you slide the saw back to you. Drop the rail and do your cut. I even have some of my rails rigged with a stop so when I bring the saw back, it bumps the stop and lowers the saw. The saw can sit on the rail all day long while you cut and you don't have to lift it at all.

Another difference is in the way you adjust for thickness of the board being cut. The festool has a fixed system that requires adjustment for each difference in thickness.

The hinged system on the PBB allows cutting of materials from 0 to about 2" with no adjustment. The hinges and rail stop when they hit the board.

The smooth surface of the inserts used on the PBB makes fine adjustments easier than the sticky tape on the Festool rails. For those functions where it is advantageous to have a sticky surface, EZ has a tape available.

The sliding modules in a PBB make it easy to expand the working surface.

I hope this post doesn't cause a problem. I've tried to offer a fact based comparison of some of the key differences as I have experienced them.

Burt

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Burt,

Thanks for the reply and information. I'm still a little confused though. You said that the MFT rail has to be lifted after each cut - this isn't quite in my experience true, or certainly not in the way I use it, I just slimply slide the saw back, move the workpiece out from under the rail and make the next cut - no need to lift the rail.

The difference in height adjustment is not quite as you describe (In my opinion) if you don't lock the festool adjusters, it will happily adjust to whatever size stock you have under the rail so it does the same thing as the PBB.

I'm not following you with the smooth insert bit, what do you mean by it makes fine adjustment easier - fine adjustment of the cut? or the rail? Sorry, i'm not really understanding this point.. help me out here

And i'm also a little foggy on the 'sliding modules' .. with the MFT to expand the working area it's very easy to add a side table or an end table etc.. is this similar?

Cheers.

(I just wanted too make sure that everyone realises i'm simply trying to define the differences in these systems in the interest of the thread and not in an EZ v FT debate, and i'm genuinly interested in what makes teh EZ different from the other brands.)

 

[Burt Waddell]

Hi Burt,

Thanks for the reply and information. I'm still a little confused though. You said that the MFT rail has to be lifted after each cut - this isn't quite in my experience true, or certainly not in the way I use it, I just slimply slide the saw back, move the workpiece out from under the rail and make the next cut - no need to lift the rail.

The difference in height adjustment is not quite as you describe (In my opinion) if you don't lock the festool adjusters, it will happily adjust to whatever size stock you have under the rail so it does the same thing as the PBB.

Apparently you have more experience with the MFT than I. Working as you described, there is little difference.

I'm not following you with the smooth insert bit, what do you mean by it makes fine adjustment easier - fine adjustment of the cut? or the rail? Sorry, i'm not really understanding this point.. help me out here

I'm referring to the surface of the insert in the EZ rail and the stick on tape on the Festool rail. The stickness of the tape would make it more difficult to slide a piece of wood than the smoother surface of the EZ insert. Use of the term adjustment was probably a poor choice of words on my part. I was talking about trying to get the board into perfect position for a cut when you are aligning with a mark as opposed to aligning with a stop.

And i'm also a little foggy on the 'sliding modules' .. with the MFT to expand the working area it's very easy to add a side table or an end table etc.. is this similar?

Dino recently came out with a new extrusion(SME) that is fastened to the top of a table. At least two of the SME are aligned parallel. A piece of 3/4" plywood is rabbitted on both the top and bottom edge so that it will slide into the extrusions. This piece you slide in is considered a sliding module. This module can be moved left or right so that you can put table surface where ever you want it. Also you can change out the piece for a longer module. The SME also has the center shaped so the ez connectors can be used to attach another SME to extend the table

Cheers.

(I just wanted too make sure that everyone realises i'm simply trying to define the differences in these systems in the interest of the thread and not in an EZ v FT debate, and i'm genuinly interested in what makes teh EZ different from the other brands.)

Bryan,

WOrking together we'll get you there and hopefully I'll learn something too.

Burt

 

[slarti42uk]

Well it's all got a little heated again :roll:

Just wanted to reply to a direct question

But your comments beg the questions - which have not been asked of him -
Does he already have a circular saw, and if so which one?

Ok... As stated in the very first post, Yes I do have a saw. Makita 5704RK. I'm a weekender/hobbyist looking to learn. I went out and bought the saw (without enough research I guess) as I need to cut sheetgoods down to size for a changing station I was making. I spent £94 and felt it was as expensive as *I* could afford.I didn't realy want to right this off now I've realised I should have got something better. (I'll learn)

Does he want his rail system to be capable of use with tools other than a circular saw, and if so what tools?

As stated in the OP I do have a router and yes I would like to use it with a rail to get better acuracy (in the x axis if you like) and easier adjustment (in the y axis)

What sort of work does he want to do with it?
How regularly will he use it?
What other tools/machines (if any) does he have.

And finally... Type of work. Just finnishing my very first project. A changing station for my little new little girl. I then plan a chest of drawers for my little lads bedroom. Beyond that... A workshop to make stuff in :lol:, Dining table ummmm anything swmbo wants that will allow me to enjoy this new hobby without too many questions about the price of tools :lol:

How regularly? Weekends as and when I can (not often at the moment)
Other tools. Power wise just the saw and router, oh and a cheapo sander. Hand tools: Most of the basics (all cheapish, as much as I could afford)

As an update I've so far ended up making a plywood guide rail :roll: untill I decide what kit to invest in :shock:

Well I've thought of another question for a new post so I'm off to start another fire :wink:

Cheers

 

[pooka]

As an update I've so far ended up making a plywood guide rail :roll: untill I decide what kit to invest in :shock:

That is the route that I went too, and I am very happy that I did. As I mentioned in a earlier post, after several years of using my home-made guides, I have recently decided to go for a commercial option (bought a Festool last week but haven't used it yet).

If my saw was better (very subjective evaluation, of course), then I wouldn't be replacing it yet and I would then possibly postpone the purchase of a commercial rail too as my home-made guides still work very well. Focusing on the saw, the following are the limitations of my Hitachi C7U that I am now hoping to solve by spending cash (rather than trying yet another home-made solution) - these issues might be relevant to you in evaluating your own saw:

- whenever I check the saw before each use, the blade seems to drift off 90 degrees to the base plate more often these days. It is never off by much, but even a tiny discrepancy here can cause serious headaches later. I don't have a table saw, so I rely on the circular saw to produce properly squared edges - I could run a router over the cut edge after each cut (just to square it up - the smoothness of the cut is always good enough not to warrant any further work), but that takes time (and could introduce further errors depending on your router guide). I am not sure why this happens - could be that I am not careful enough not to knock the saw when putting it down, or might be that the motor itself has more play in it with use. My hope is that my new saw will not suffer from this issue, but time will tell.

- the saw has no electronic brake. This hasn't really proved to be a problem, but I am always conscious of the blade spinning for those few seconds after I release the trigger so a brake would give a little peace of mind. If I had kids hovering nearby, or my cats were less reluctant to hang around when the saw is in use, then the lack of a brake would be a much bigger issue for me.

- dust extraction. To be honest I haven't really put the dust extraction on my current saw to a proper test, but that is partly because the location of the dust port (to side of the blade) would cause the extraction tube to get in my way. The Festool has been rated very highly for dust extraction in every review that I have read, so I am hoping that it lives up to this promise.

If you are happy with your saw, and your cutting guides work well, then I would postpone your decision of what commercial solution to buy until you have spent time using your current system and identifying its limitations. If you decide your saw is more than adequate, then you may well decide against commercial solutions which require you to purchase a saw with the guide.

One other thing that I would recommend is that you make up a cutting table. There are lots of opinions as to what constitutes a good solution here, but I just used a simple ladder-shaped framework of 2" x 4" white deal/pine screwed together to form a "table" of about 5' x 2' - smaller dimensions of wood pieces would be fine too and would make for a lighter cutting table. I then just sit this on a pair of (plastic) trestles. I rest the piece to be cut on top, the gaps in the table providing plenty of places to clamp the piece/guide to the table, and cut into the table when cutting the piece. It works well, but any setup which provides support for the piece being cut (and the offcut piece) will be of great help - it is safer, results in a better quality of cut, makes the process quicker, etc.

Even with a commercial guide rail system I will continue to use my cutting table - maybe eventually I will look at a commercial option here too, but the choice of cutting table probably warrants a thread in itself!

As stated in the OP I do have a router and yes I would like to use it with a rail to get better acuracy (in the x axis if you like) and easier adjustment (in the y axis)

This is something that I would like too. As I already have a pair of decent routers, I can't really justify buying a system which requires me to buy a new router. The EZ system looks interesting here, but I'm not sure I want to spend that much cash before exhausting the home-made options first. In the meantime, I make do with my old straight-edged piece of plywood as a guide, and more recently some straight-edged clamp guides, neither of which allow you to easily adjust the distance from the guide edge to the cut line (that ability that the EZ guide router plate gives you, to slide the router the desired distance form the cutting guide, is the only reason that I would consider buying it as my existing cutting guides are more than adequate otherwise).

Of course, you could decide to get rid of your saw, router, etc., and just get yourself a ShopBot: http://www.shopbottools.com/