EZ Smart Guide / Festool Guide. Are there any others?

[Another Dave]

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=31208&name=guide+rail&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0

Axminster sell these clamps with T slots, It seems to me with a bit of work you can build nice accessory mounts for router saw etc they sell stops etc for it and at 50" long it seems pretty good to me at @ 20 quid

They also do this
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axmi ... -21753.htm

but I cannot see if it has slots,

We use both types of these Axminster guides. In fact we have four of the "Clamp Guide" type and find them very useful both for saw and router. The 'T' slots are very small, not like in a machine table.

Rutlands also do them, but all the accessories such as base plates, stops, featherboards, etc. fit either suppliers guides. Rutlands sell saw and router plates to suit for 25 quid.

The longer guide - the one in the second link - doesn't have any kind of slots. You just rub the saw along it. It is handy and clamps from below the board so no clamps to get in the way of the saw.

Having seen the Mafell system demonstrated several times I was most impressed, and keep telling myself I must open a savings account!

 

[pooka]

Re the DIY option for cutting guides: I have been using home-made cutting guides for several years with very good results. If you are looking for a quick and cheap solution then I strongly recommend it. My guides consists of a "fence" of 200mm wide birch plywood (18mm thick) attached to a 6mm thick hardboard base. The saw sits on the hardboard base, sliding against the edge of the birch ply. As mentioned in a previous post, start with the base (hardboard) wider than you need and the first time you run the saw down it this trims it to the correct width for that saw with that blade. To cut wood, just line up the edge of the hardboard to your cutting line, clamp the guide, and run the saw down.

With a mediocre saw (I use a Hitachi C7U, which is basically fine) and a reasonable blade (I use a Freud LP40M), I produce very good cuts every time.

Pros:
- Cheap and easy to make and replace.
- You can make guides in any length you want, limited only by the lengths of stock you have available. I have a 2.4m guide, a 1.2m guide, and a 1m guide with a square fence attached.
- You can use it with any saw (although if you change saw, or perhaps even blade, you'll need to make new bases to fit).
- Works very well.

Cons:
- My guides are heavy, due to the width of ply that I went with. This makes the 2.4m one awkward to maneouvre, and as a result makes the hardboard base more susceptible to being damaged when being moved - damage to the hardboard edge will obviously affect the protection, along the cutting line, of the stock being cut.
- The cutting guides cannot be easily reduced in size for more convenient storage (not necessarily a con though as a one-piece cutting guide is quicker to use anyway with no fear of loss of accuracy).
- Unless you have a saw that provides it, you don't get any protection of the top edge of the piece to the right of your blade. Having said that, with the blade that I use even plywood on the offcut side usually comes away with a reasonably clean edge.
- It is not easy to clamp piece to the cutting guide that are shorter than the cutting guide itself. You can get round this easily enough with a bit of thought, but it does add to the setup time.

I have been very happy with the results of my guides+saw, but having said that I am now taking the plunge and buying a commercial option too (Festool, in my case). This is mainly because I'd like a decent saw (an electronic brake will be a welcome change, for example), and I also want the convenience of lighter cutting guides.

As regards a guide for a router, I considered extending the base of my saw cutting guides out the other side, to provide a base for my router. However, the width of the base would have to vary with every different diameter bit in the router, and it would have made that side of the cutting guide more fragile too. I have made do for a long time with clamping a straight piece of plywood as a router cutting guide, more recently using some commercial clamping straight edges. For me, the most appealing solution is one that provides a straight edge guide for the router, and also allows the router to slide a varying distance from the straight edge - basically, what the EZ router offering allows, although I think I'll go the home-made route first before investing the kind of money that the EZ option entails.

 

[ecp]

I have been watching this thread with interest as I have been contemplating getting a guide rail system since I saw a video of the Eurekazone stuff a couple of weeks ago.

Having looked at all the options presented here and on various other web sites, I still can't help thinking that the EZSmart from Eurekazone offers the best solution in terms of flexibility, versatility and value for money.

The thing I like most is the ability to not only use it as a guide rail, but to also use it as a saw table.
They have this new video out which explains the concept very clearly.

The tunnel routing setup also looks very interesting as an option to a router table for most work.

 

[ByronBlack]

Just a quick thing about the festool and the anti-chip zero clearance plastic adaptor - i've never used mine and have had splinter-free cuts in everything that i've thrown at it - even the HDF laminate flooring, so I don't think this would be an on-going cost factor. Also if you are sharpening or using the same model blade then like the rubber strips you wouldn't need to replace if you use it.

I wouldn't recommend the festool sytem unless you are prepared to spend for the premium (the blades are very expensive) also an MFT really makes the system shine, and despite some misgivings I've had with it, i've come to the conclusion that it really is an excellent system for cabinet work, just not great for ripping long boards unless you gang a number of rails together..

It's quite easy to make your own zero-clearance plate and wooden guide rail which will give you acceptable and repeatable results, but then you have the hassle of making it - personally, i'm not a huge fan of making elaborate jigs.

IF you do get the EZ just remember to factor in delivery costs and import duty. When I was making the same decision just over a year ago between the festool and the EZ it really wasn't that much difference in price, and due to the larger company I decided to go for the festool (Also, the saw is fantastic!)

Hope that helps.

P.S Ecp - those EZ table whatsits are a copy of the festool MFT which does the same thing (probably the festool is more expensive though?)

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

Byron, what do the blades cost on these? I've been looking at rail systems for sometime now. Still very much undecided though

 

[ByronBlack]

The 48 tooth multi-purpose blade is about £45 (This is the blade that comes with the TS55)

The 16 tooth rip-cut is about £25

There is also a rip-cut blade called a 'panther' (supposed to be even better) but thats about £60

They are expensive, but then they are fantastic, the 48 tooth espeically leaves a wonderful finish on almost anything i've cut.

 

[woodshavings]

This is a really interesting thread!
The clips of the EZ system are quite persuasive, Dino is certainly an enthusiast!
However, I have difficulty in comparing the landed cost of the EZ system and the Festool. Byron, could you share your cost analysis?
Thanks,
John

 

[ecp]

P.S Ecp - those EZ table whatsits are a copy of the festool MFT which does the same thing (probably the festool is more expensive though?)

Not quite Byron. The MFT as I understand it is a fixed size small table at over £250 for a 600 x 500 table.
The EZ one is made by buying the rails and components and you can build it to any size you want.
If you look at the sawmill creek forum, a guy called Burt (a professional cabinet maker) has a number of them he has set up for different jobs, and he uses a Unifence on some of them. His use of the system is quite impressive. He used to be a Festool user but now uses EZ as he says it is much more flexible (his words not mine ) .

I have difficulty in comparing the landed cost of the EZ system

Why not call Dino - or e-mail him. He'll give you a price for the parts and shipping - he will happily talk to you and recommend the right parts if you tell him what you want to do - he did with me.
Then just add 17.5% for import VAT and about £20 for charges (that's what I paid for a large tool from the US, so I guess it'll be about the same for the EZ.)

I haven't ordered one yet as I'm waiting to sell a few tools out of the workshop to raise some cash for it.

 

[Scrit]

A bit more information about Spero saws - these are a Taiwanese-made saw which are fully compatible with the Festool system being made-for and sold by the former Holz-Her distributor in the Netherlands. Details of the two saws are here and here. My experience of dealing with Dutch firms is that they often have someone in the business who speaks excellent English (as opposed to German firms where English-speakers are a lot rarer IMHO). Quality is supposed to be below Festool (inevitably), but nevertheless more than acceptable. Has anyone seen or used one of these saws?

Scrit

 

[pooka]

I know that his been mentioned many times in the past, but for those people not aware of it, here is a word of warning if buying anything in from outside of the EU: you are liable to both VAT and import/customs duty on the combined cost of the order plus the delivery charges. In Ireland the VAT is 21% and customs duty is 3.5% (-ish). I am not sure what the corresponding rates are in the UK but I think they are very similar. In addition, a handling charge is typically applied, basically for work involved in billing you - the handling charges that I have incurred have been in the region of EUR10, but they vary from one shipping company to another.

While these charges are not always applied (luck of the draw, it seems) you should budget for these costs when comparing a product available locally with one that you will be buying in from outside the EU.

 

[ByronBlack]

Ecp - I have some info on the MFT for you and in the interest in fairness in the discussion for comparisons.

The MFT is actually: 1165 x 725 mm in size. However, you do NOT have to buy the expensive kit at the set size. Festool sell all the components seperatly, so you can create as big or small an MFT as you wish. The extruded side rail come in 2 metre lengths, all you need is an MDF or similar top and the rail supports, so it's very versatile. Hence my statement that the EZ is a copy, albeit a good one, I just wanted to put out the alternative to balance the discussion. Also the complete EZ bridge setup costs $1149.99 which is certainly a lot more than the complete MFT kit.

HI John,

I can't remember the exact figures, but I think the festool worked out to be about £30 or £40 quid more with a couple of rails as opposed to the EZ system, I did have a thread with the all the details on it, but alas my search skills are unable to find it..

The other reason I went for festool was basically the support of a larger company, we don't know how long Dino's products are going to be around or how many staff he has to support he product, whereas my local tool shop can give me all the services I need for the festool range, being a hobbyist this is was crucial to me as I rely on the saw almost every day and don't have a backup like a pro might.

HTH

 

[ecp]

Byron, thanks for the info.

I was obviously confused as the details here show a size of 725 x 590 mm at £298, or 725 x 1165 mm at £386 with a maximum material size of 625 x 1085mm.

Confusing eh?

 

[ByronBlack]

ecp - aye, they do two sizes, but to be honest most people I know either make their own from components or get hte larger size. I think the smaller one is for model making type hobbies as it's really rather small for anthing else, however all the MFT's can be connected to each other, so the smaller one makes a nice extension to the larger one.

 

[Dave S]

The MFT is actually: 1165 x 725 mm in size. However, you do NOT have to buy the expensive kit at the set size. Festool sell all the components seperatly, so you can create as big or small an MFT as you wish. The extruded side rail come in 2 metre lengths, all you need is an MDF or similar top and the rail supports, so it's very versatile. Hence my statement that the EZ is a copy, albeit a good one, I just wanted to put out the alternative to balance the discussion.

The EZ rails also come in long lengths - one thing to be aware of is that USPS won't ship the longer lengths so that means either getting shorter lengths and joining, or else looking into alternative shipping methods. When I bought mine, I got the impression they weren't well versed with the alternatives. I can check out and post the prices and length limits when I get home.

One other thing to bear in mind is that they were offering an extra discount to help offset the shipping costs.

Also the complete EZ bridge setup costs $1149.99 which is certainly a lot more than the complete MFT kit.

That is for the full powerbench which they have only recently started offering as a complete kit. It's almost entirely made of existing components. I don't know if they have sold any yet - judging by the user forum, most people purchase components and make their own power bench. The components to make your own are much cheaper - again I can post my costs when I get home.

The other reason I went for festool was basically the support of a larger company, we don't know how long Dino's products are going to be around or how many staff he has to support he product

That, I suspect, will be a very common point of view (I'm not criticising, by the way).
Dave

 

[Colin C]

Hence my statement that the EZ is a copy, albeit a good one, I just wanted to put out the alternative to balance the discussion. Also the complete EZ bridge setup costs $1149.99 which is certainly a lot more than the complete MFT kit.

HI John,

I can't remember the exact figures, but I think the festool worked out to be about £30 or £40 quid more with a couple of rails as opposed to the EZ system, I did have a thread with the all the details on it, but alas my search skills are unable to find it..


HTH

Hi BB



Here is that thread you started about getting the EZ or Festool rails systems but if I remember right you were going to get more bits from the EZ range than just the rails.

So you comparing prices is not as clear as you make it.

If you are also going to compare the EZ bridge with the Festool one, please show what you are talking about as you are point out a bit of a grey area ( the bridge and Power bench is a big system that can be made to fit your needs ).

I am not saying the Festool cant do that but if you just point out the basic, I dont think it is being fare on either system.

Regards Colin

 

[ByronBlack]

HI Colin, thanks for the thread link, hopefully that'll be of help to someone.

EDIT: just deleted a load of gumpf in comparing the two - totally off topic to the original thread, the world doesn't need another festool V EZ - they are both fantastically great products!!

 

[Burt Waddell]

HI Colin, thanks for the thread link, hopefully that'll be of help to someone.

EDIT: just deleted a load of gumpf in comparing the two - totally off topic to the original thread, the world doesn't need another festool V EZ - they are both fantastically great products!!

Byron,

In an earlier post you said that the EZ is a copy. I think you might want to take another look at the U tube videos. Also here is a few points for you to consider. I personally own a good bit of the Festool Stuff and most of the EZ Stuff. Conservatively, I've made more than 20 of the EZ tables. Anyone who says that the EZ is a copy of the Festool doesn't understand the two systems.

Here are the points for your consideration:

The EZ PBB2550 includes 30 LF of extrusions vs 12 LF ( Your table)
A complete self adjusting Bridge system B-200 vs ???????
Two layers of 3/4" maple tops. (One sliding) vs ????????
One 70" patented, super strong bi-directional rail vs ???????
Two clamps-antichip system, universal smart base,
3 squaring stops, one dual flip stop.
One 48" rip fence and one set of sliding legs.

You saw the videos and you're calling the ez system a copy of Festool?

Repeaters-Cabinetmaker-Sliding square- Smart clamping system- Bridge system-Sliding modules powerbench-Universal Smart base-
Smart router kit....

...All the above are new and unique to the ez system

Burt

 

[ecp]

we don't know how long Dino's products are going to be around or how many staff he has to support he product

Although I can see the point, I wonder how much of a concern this should be.

I personally have bought products from small companies in the past, so far with mixed results.

The amount of support I have needed thereafter has depended on the type of product and what it is used for.

For example, with a television which is bought for daily use and will be used long term, if a component fails after a time, I would be most upset if the manufacturer had either stopped servicing that model or had gone out of business and it could not be repaired.

The same goes for a circular saw or similar tools.

However if the product does the job it is supposed to do when it arrives, it is substantially made and will last a life time (like an aluminium guide rail) I would not be too worried if the manufacturer disappeared after a while unless I wanted another one - then I would consider alternatives.

Having said that, is there any reason to think that Eurekazone will not be around long term?

Surely if nobody bought products from new or small companies because 'they might disappear', then no new companies would be successful enough to continue to grow into 'big companies'.

Think back to Dyson - designed a 'cyclone' for home vacuums, started in a shed, was laughed and and scorned by large manufacturers like 'Hoover', but has been so successful that his product is now copied by all the 'big companies' that told him it would never sell.

Just my thoughts on the issue of company size, but maybe I'm naive

 

[Niki]

Hi Ecp

Without referring to "how long the product will be around" or the quality of the product, I think that every tool, be it electric or manual, some parts will wear out or break because of usage or by occasional drop...

I bought an Hitachi router in Japan (100V)...I broke the "Speed control"...I contacted Hitachi in Poland and they asked me to send all the router and they will "see what we can do".
Two weeks later, they told me that they cannot do nothing because they don't have parts for 100V routers.
Now, I'm waiting over a month for the "speed control" to come from Japan"...so I don't have a router for already (and counting) 6 weeks...last time that I'll by in Japan even though the price is lower than EU.

What I'm trying to say is that, if you buy a product from Japan or USA, you have to take into account that the parts are not readily available like in EU that usually has agents in every EU country.

Not only, but you have to consider the shipping, customs and VAT (in Poland, on everything that is imported from an EU country, we have to pay only VAT - 22% but, if it's from non EU country, also the customs)...

I had a problem with my Elektra Beckum PK-255 table saw (table top not flat), the company rep. came, checked and told me "pack it, and tomorrow morning a truck with a new table saw will come here and take it"....and so it was...when the "parents" are near by...

I think that for tools (especially if one is making his living from them), it's better to have the "parents" close by...

niki

 

[ByronBlack]

HI Colin, thanks for the thread link, hopefully that'll be of help to someone.

EDIT: just deleted a load of gumpf in comparing the two - totally off topic to the original thread, the world doesn't need another festool V EZ - they are both fantastically great products!!

Byron,

In an earlier post you said that the EZ is a copy. I think you might want to take another look at the U tube videos. Also here is a few points for you to consider. I personally own a good bit of the Festool Stuff and most of the EZ Stuff. Conservatively, I've made more than 20 of the EZ tables. Anyone who says that the EZ is a copy of the Festool doesn't understand the two systems.

Here are the points for your consideration:

The EZ PBB2550 includes 30 LF of extrusions vs 12 LF ( Your table)
A complete self adjusting Bridge system B-200 vs ???????
Two layers of 3/4" maple tops. (One sliding) vs ????????
One 70" patented, super strong bi-directional rail vs ???????
Two clamps-antichip system, universal smart base,
3 squaring stops, one dual flip stop.
One 48" rip fence and one set of sliding legs.

You saw the videos and you're calling the ez system a copy of Festool?

Repeaters-Cabinetmaker-Sliding square- Smart clamping system- Bridge system-Sliding modules powerbench-Universal Smart base-
Smart router kit....

...All the above are new and unique to the ez system

Burt

Nice sales pitch! New and unique? really?... a saw on a rail - is that unique? a flip-stop, is that unique? A system to hold a rail above the workpiece on a work-table, is that unique? sliding square, is that unique? a zero-clearance sub-base, is that unique? No, they aren't. But it certainly is a great set of products though, of that there is no doubt. But it does the same thing as an MFT. We are treading old and boring ground; lets just say they are both great products, each has benefits and features, and i'm sure whatever anyone buys they'll have a great tool.