EZ Smart Guide / Festool Guide. Are there any others?

[ivan]

Some practical points to consider:

A home made guide is OK for rough panel sizing where cut quality and the small loss of depth of cut doesn't matter. The cheaper the saw used the worse the cut and lower the accuracy (mainly because of vibration making guide hard to follow). If you buy a better saw, may as well get the guide...

A proper guide and plunge saw combination allows you to make a scoring cut first (no propriatary anti splinter device needed at all) for perfect cuts on all materials.

The Festool 48 tooth blade is thicker than either the Mafell GP or fine Xcut, so this may help with smoother cuts. It fits my Mafell and is much more readily avilable. As the Festoolers say, it cuts very cleanly.

Mafel guides now have a rubber antisplinter edge, and a home made zero clearance plastic "insert" can easily be fixed to the inverted rip fence, actually more versatile than the Festool solution.

The Mafell guide joiner is all metal (appears to be hardened steel). Anyone know how accurate the Mafel/Festool guide is supposed to be - I've never had an answer. +/- 1.0 mm over an 8' sheet? +/- 0.25mm? What accuracy a "replacement" for a panel saw?

 

[Scrit]

All these systems have their pros and cons, but frankly they are all much of a muchness in terms of price overall, so the real end question therefore is what quality of saw do you want to get into.

I couldn't agree with you more, Paul. A similar thing can be said for blades, where thickness of blade most certainly affects the quality of cut in terms of the amount of "wow and flutter" the blade suffers

If you are site working more frequently, then the kind of material you will generally cut, and the spaces in which you work are the deciding factor, along with the fact that certain people might take a liking to your tools, so you tend to think about the cheapest solution.

In my personal experience this is not the case. Most reasonable tradesmen buy the best quality tools they can afford on grounds of accuracy, reliability and durability - the "nickability" of tools is less of a factor as you tend to watch your kit like a hawk! For this reason you tend to see a Festool systems and more recently Mafell syetems on sites

Thanks for your insight on this Paul, what you were saying about the starting point often affecting the decision rings very true.

A proper guide and plunge saw combination allows you to make a scoring cut first (no propriatary anti splinter device needed at all) for perfect cuts on all materials.

True, although making a backwards cut 0.5 to 1.0mm deep works it works better with an ATB blade, so blade design also influences this capability

Anyone know how accurate the Mafell/Festool guide is supposed to be - I've never had an answer. +/- 1.0 mm over an 8' sheet? +/- 0.25mm? What accuracy a "replacement" for a panel saw?

First things first. Dino from EZ has made some outlandish claims about the accuracy and repeatability of the EZ system against conventional panel saws which could never be bourne out in practice. Rail systems are not in the same league of accuracy and repaetability that true panel saws are. As a seasoned panel saw user and a rail system user I'm not theorising, just stating a fact. Fundamentally a true sliding carraige panel saw supports an 8 x 4ft sheet in an almost dead flat plane which is difficult to emulate in the sorts of environments that rail systems are used in. This means that the rail systems start at a disadvantage.

Next all the rails I've looked at (now Bosch, Festool, Mafell and deWalt) have a tendency to flex ever so slightly in the middle on long cuts as it is easy to introduce some sideways pressure onto the rail. Their relative lack of a box structure means that flexing is all but impossible to overcome - even extruded "builder system" ally profiles used to manufacture one-off machines flex to an extent and they are much more rigid to start with. Fortunately this flexing is not significant in most instances, but the liklihood that you will always get a perfect straight cut isn't high. Fortunately for most purposes it either doesn't matter or any slight error (and they are slight) can be corrected by judicious use of a hand plane.

Thirdly all saws used with rail systems need to have some form of locking cam adjuster to endure that the saw will slide smoothly and without any tendencyy for the plate to wobble about. I've found the Bosch system to be very good, whilst the Festool one seems to suffer from stickiness and sloppiness after use (two different machines/rails suffered the same problems) - bear in mind that I'm talking about machines which have done thousands of cuts here, not just a few tens - so wear may well be an influencing factorin accuracy (not something you worry about with a panel saw - generally the bearings are good for a half million plus cuts)

Finally the blade becomes a significant factor. As you said the Festool blades are wider than the Mafell ones - but so is the Freud blade (not a red thin one) I use - and thicker/smaller diameter blades are intrinsically more rigid (therefore accurate) in cut

I therefore feel that the issue of +/- 1.0 mm over an 8' sheet is moot - a good panel saw, well maintained should be able to deliver a rip accurate to +/- 0.5mm over 2.5 metres with less that +/- 0.25mm deflection from straight line and a right angle cut with an accuracy of +/- 0.125 degrees (and squaring is one of the major functions of a panel saw). There are simply too many influencing factors with rail systems to ever be able to deliver that level of accuracy, however they are capable of delivering a more than acceptable straightness of line for hand work which is surely what we are aiming for?

Scrit

 

[ecp]

Scrit, I understand your comments completely, but I have a question and an observation.

Fundamentally a true sliding carraige panel saw supports an 8 x 4ft sheet in an almost dead flat plane

But at what price?

Most of the saws within the price range of the enthusiast or small trader won't support an 8' x 4' sheet flat as the tops and or/sliding carriages are not large enough and need to have additional support to keep a large board completely flat and stable in the horizontal plane.
Or am I missing something?

difficult to emulate in the sorts of environments that rail systems are used in

Have you seen the Power Bench offered by Dino's company?
I have extensively studied the large number of variations built by posters on their forum, and I can see how their system holds very large material (even bigger than 8' x 4') flat, solid and stable.
I have spoken to a UK user of the system (only on the phone) who says he regularly rips 8'x 4' for kitchen cabinets on one - and he says he gets accuracy better than +/- 0.5mm over the 8' length and the edges are as straight as he ever got with his panel saw.
Now although I have only his word for that and I don't know what panel saw he is comparing it to, I have no reason to dis-believe him.

Hopefully I'll be able to verify the claims soon though as I am seriously considering buying one.

 

[engineer one]

scrit, part of what i was saying about the nickability of tools is down to the experience of some mates here in london.

on one site 9 vans got done at the same time.
i accept however that london sites are special in terms of the problems with parking and other considerations which make it more difficult often to keep your eyes on all your tools all the time

ecp. you have to take the view about what you are trying to do, and the space. when any system is new, it will be pretty accurate, but wear and tear affects us all, and the kind of handling we all give our site tools affects them too.

a PROPER panel saw has full horizontal surfaces to support the wood, but does mean that you need at least 20feet by 10 feet space around it when i use with a full sheet of 8x4.

patently therefore a rail system offers great space saving capabilites, since it only needs about 10x6 feet. however there are problems inherent in moving the saw along the whole 2 metre length. (kind of like the problem some of us still have planing long boards by hand. as you change your stance you can change the pressure you put on the rail, and thus COULD introduce an error. not every time, but maybe often enough to be a pita.

i would suggest that to be properly accurate on panels cuts, you would layout your intended item and then cut them oversize with the rail system, and then finish to size on a table saw. (accurately set up as scrit has suggested elsewhere on the site)

being an owner of a rail system i cannot knock the idea, but am cognisant of the problems as well as the benefits, and would suggest taking any manufacturers claims with a pinch of some low sodium salt :roll:

practically in many circumstances, cutting up to 4 feet long is really easy and with the proper stance can be done easily and very accurately on a rail system, that has been properly fixed to the item being cut. however i defy anyone who is of average height, say 5ft 8 will find it difficult to cut an 8 foot length in one stroke, hence offering the chance of causing inaccuracies, particularly if the cut is say more than 18 inches from the edge, cause when you are leaning over, you are out of site.

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

But at what price?

There's the rub!

Have you seen the Power Bench offered by Dino's company?

Yes, or at least I've read about it, but Dino is a good salesman and committed to his product and I, in common with many others, find some of his assertions overblown when it comes to accuracy and repeatability. Panel saws work on the basis that your first two cuts, at right angles, provide a pair of reference edges at right angles, and the nature of a panel saw means that is possible to set-up the parallel rip to be absolutely accurate (other than mechanical run-out, etc) and the right angle to be absolutely 90° without the need to read or set any angle from any form of scale.

The accuracy required to rip materials for kitchen cabinets isn't particularly high, therefore a system such as Dino's is good enough for the task at very small volume. It is never going to have the features you will get in a full-size panel saw - and remember that includes longevity

I am not anti rail systems, and indeed I own one and use it. I am opposed to overblown marketing hyperbole

Scrit

 

[ivan]

Just had a quick look at the EZ site; his rail appears to be mounted over the table (when in "panel saw" mode) on a parallelogram arrangement to allow the rail to rise to allow panel entry, and then to fall to the surface for cutting. That's 4 pivoting screws at each end, and no locking mechanism, so they have some free play, or the 'bridge' wouldn't move. And the arms look like plastic. Hmm. Probably +/- 1mm at each end, so not exactly repeatable, methinks.

Scritt's hit nail on't head. I am guessing that the idea of proper panel saw accuracy but at a price for low volume use would be very handy. Especially if it had a scoring facility. Only available to smokers of exotica, perhaps.

 

[Colin C]

Just had a quick look at the EZ site; his rail appears to be mounted over the table (when in "panel saw" mode) on a parallelogram arrangement to allow the rail to rise to allow panel entry, and then to fall to the surface for cutting. That's 4 pivoting screws at each end, and no locking mechanism, so they have some free play, or the 'bridge' wouldn't move. And the arms look like plastic. Hmm. Probably +/- 1mm at each end, so not exactly repeatable, methinks.

Scritt's hit nail on't head. I am guessing that the idea of proper panel saw accuracy but at a price for low volume use would be very handy. Especially if it had a scoring facility. Only available to smokers of exotica, perhaps.

Hi Ivan

I have the bridge and there is no side ways movement in the arms ( please dont guess as this is where some of the problems have started :roll: ).
I will tell the truth that since getting mine I have not been in the workshop much to use it alot, ( by the way, if you dont know I am a pro with 23 years on the job ).

It does not need a locking mechanism, why would it but it can be put up and it will stay there. Not sure what you mean.

When I do I will give a review on it and tell the truth as I see it.

I have the EZ and have use it for cutting boards for units I have made and also for cutting the border on a wooden floor.

Regards Colin

 

[woodshavings]

Hi Colin,
Would really appreciate a review of your EZ system. It seems a good idea but do wonder how it works in practice.
John

 

[Colin C]

Hi John

I have had the EZ for a while now and have been very happy with but I have not had much chance to give th bridge a good run.

In my workshop, I no longer have a tablesaw and just use the EZ or my bandsaw.

When I do, I will try to post what I find

 

[ByronBlack]

If you want a review of the EZ go over to sawmill creek, more EZ stuff than you can shake a stick at, also there are plenty of dino vids on youtube.

 

[woodshavings]

Hi Byron,

Thanks for info.
I have watched most of the EZ youtube videos - Dino's a real enthusiast and very persuasive. I have also looked at the EZ postings on the Sawmillcreek site, also very positive but need to remember it is the manufacturer's sponsored forum.

For an independant view, I really value the opinions and experience of this forum. I think the UK prospective can be different from the US which is why I hope Colin is able to give an unbiased view.

Cheers,

John

 

[Burt Waddell]

Since I am an avid supporter of the Eurkazone products, I have been asked to add a "tag line" stating that. I have no connection with the Eurekazone company.

I have been using the EZ bridges as long as they have been available. I have not experienced any side to side movement in the bridges. Also I have not heard of anyone having this problem.

Dino is enthusiastic in promoting his product but at the same I've never seen him make a comment that he won't back up. For years, he offered to give his Fiat, $5,000 and a years supply of gas for the Fiat to anyone that would do a series of cuts quicker than better than the EZ. They could use any tool that they wanted (Including the big sliders or a Festool saw). The cuts to be made were to be selected by a 3rd party who is neutral. No one accepted the challenge. I was highly skeptical until I tried the product. In fact I passed it up for another product and then came back to the EZ. It is easy to be enthusiastic when you have a very high quality product.

I have EZ bridges for jobsite use, crosscutting in the shop, ripping full sheets of plywood, etc.

The clamping action of the B-200 bridge is one of those things that you have to experience to believe. The hinge setup allows the rail to lay directly on top of the wood being cut but the aluminum doesn't actually contact the wood. The inserts on either side of the rail set at an angle to the rail. As the weight of the rail and saw are placed on the piece being cut, the plastic grips the wood and holds it in place. I've even used the rails to rip a 5/16" wide piece of wood into two pieces.

Many of you are like myself and one of my employees. We both thought the EZ sounded to good to be true. After experiencing it, we are both strong supporters of the EZ system.

Burt
Enthusiastic EZ Smart Supporter

 

[seaco]

Wouldn't something like this do the trick for most cuts 12mm ply and a hardwood guide recessed in?

 

[ecp]

go over to sawmill creek

plenty of dino vids on youtube

That's where I found all the information - I spent a whole evening 'researching' and came to the conclusion that the system was worth serious consideration. The users all seem very happy with their systems, and some of them are like Colin - have been in the trade a long time and are quite experienced with different tooling solutions.

The usual problem though - you don't know until you try.

Burt:

I have been using the EZ bridges as long as they have been available.

I have seen the picures of some of your systems and your workshop - very impressive.

 

[Burt Waddell]

That looks surprisingly like the EZ square with a handle. The only thing that I see that is missing is an anti splinter system to insure cut quality.


Burt

 

[ivan]

Colin, you're quite right, I am estimating; although from the basis of quite a bit of metalworking and jig construction. However, without being able to screw up the bridge parallelogram pivots tight, after lowering onto the work, (ie. locking), I would, from an engineering perspective, expect there would be some degree of lateral movement possible in the rail/guide. Without the rail being fixed rigidly at both ends, cut repeatability is impossible. Maybe seeing is believing - a UK review would be good! I don't want to upset our transatlantic cousins, but a lot of their pro-EZ postings sound a bit too hyped up to constitute considered judgements.

I admit to being put off by all the EZ video clips. Maybe they bring to mind a silver tongued market trader. On dial-up they take too long to download, and if you persist, they are very fuzzy. You certainly couldn't determine lateral rigidity. Festool's 'Making the most of the Multifunction table' .pdf article covers what one might call 'bridge cutting' far better for me. From an engineering perspective the parts look more likely to provide the necessary rigid guide rail fixing. Again, review would be nice!

Oh dear; I don't want to start an unholy row - personally I use a Mafell saw and guide rail when needed!

 

[Burt Waddell]

Colin, you're quite right, I am estimating; although from the basis of quite a bit of metalworking and jig construction. However, without being able to screw up the bridge parallelogram pivots tight, after lowering onto the work, (ie. locking), I would, from an engineering perspective, expect there would be some degree of lateral movement possible in the rail/guide. Without the rail being fixed rigidly at both ends, cut repeatability is impossible. Maybe seeing is believing - a UK review would be good! I don't want to upset our transatlantic cousins, but a lot of their pro-EZ postings sound a bit too hyped up to constitute considered judgements.

I admit to being put off by all the EZ video clips. Maybe they bring to mind a silver tongued market trader. On dial-up they take too long to download, and if you persist, they are very fuzzy. You certainly couldn't determine lateral rigidity. Festool's 'Making the most of the Multifunction table' .pdf article covers what one might call 'bridge cutting' far better for me. From an engineering perspective the parts look more likely to provide the necessary rigid guide rail fixing. Again, review would be nice!

Oh dear; I don't want to start an unholy row - personally I use a Mafell saw and guide rail when needed!

Ivan,

Something I should have mentioned earlier: There are two versions of the EZ bridge - the B-100 and the B-200. The B100 does not have the folding parts like the B-200. With the B-100, you adjust the bridge to thickness of the wood you are going to cut. When working with a single thickness it is great but can be frustrating if you are working with multiple thicknesses. Since the B-100 is locked in place as it is set for a thickness, there is no chance of it moving.

Burt

 

[ecp]

I admit to being put off by all the EZ video clips. Maybe they bring to mind a silver tongued market trader.

I have to say (no argument intended) I disagree.
I deal with a lot of people in Europe and it is not unusual to find that they express themselves in English in ways that can easily be misunderstood by us Brits. I am talking not about the words, but the way they are used and/or expressed.

Sometimes the way they present themselves can seem condescending, or over confident or even rude - but that is not what they intend (in most cases).

Dino is Greek I believe, and I tend to take his presentations with an attitude to make allowances for this - but that's just my opinion.

their pro-EZ postings sound a bit too hyped up to constitute considered judgements

Americans have a totally different attitude to us Brits. They are not as reserved as us when it comes to expressing an opinion. Hence the reputation American tourists have in the UK Service industry (such as hotels for example) for complaining if they don't get the service they expect.
Equally, if they are enthusiastic about something, they are ENTHUSIASTIC.

However, without being able to screw up the bridge parallelogram pivots tight, after lowering onto the work, (ie. locking), I would, from an engineering perspective, expect there would be some degree of lateral movement possible in the rail/guide.

I spoke to a Hilti Rep about their Circular saw the other day. He went on to tell me about their guide rail and stated that it can be used to produce accurate cuts without clamps as they have a rubber strip under the rail which prevents movement.
When I challenged the statement with a degree of disbelief he said that it was true and certainly as accurate as other rail manufacturers who have a similar facility such as Festool.

Personally I can't confirm or refute his comment as I haven't experience of any of these type of rails, but I do 'think' that there is likely to be far less likelyhood of movement with the EZ Bridge mechanism than is likely with these other manufacturers who claim accuracy with just a rubber grip.
Again, I have at present no experience of the 'Bridge' and maybe I am wrong, but both Burt and Colin seem to think it is solid, so personally, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt until I can prove otherwise or others who have experience of it say something different.

 

[Dan Clark]

I'm an American. My opinion as an American is that Dino's hyperbole is way over the top! While I found that Festools broad ranging solution fit my needs better than the EZ's more limited solution, I decided not to buy EZ long before I finalized on Festool. I was completely turned off by EZ's overblown marketing statements.

While American's can be enthusiastic, you'll find that most Americans can be fairly discerning. American TV, radio, news, and magazine ads are constantly blaring that their product is the "best". A very large number of Americans CANNOT stand that kind of advertising. We automatically assume that the product is extremely poor quality if it requires high-pressure marketing tactics.

Americans may be noisy (enthusiastic), but we don't like BS. I would strongly encourage you NOT to give Dino, Burt or anyone else associated with the EZ company the benefit of the doubt. That pretty much goes for for any company rep. Challenge their statements, require proof, evaluate the information, and make an informed decision. Please don't take marketing hype at face value.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., Regarding the Hilti rep, I suspect that their guide rails actually can cut accurately without clamps. I do that with my Festool guide rails all the time. I suspect that EZ rails can do likewise and doesn't require additional clamping. (On very narrow pieces clamping is a probably a good idea, though.) This is my opinion as a Festool user based on many cuts with my TS55 and guide rails. Will you get high volume production cuts like a panel saw? I suspect not, but I have no proof one way or the other.

 

[Anonymous]

It's good to see that Burt Waddell is maintaining his 100% record of never posting anything other than promoting the EZ.

It doesn't matter what the thread is, the EZ is always the answer.

Cheers,
Neil