EZ Smart Guide / Festool Guide. Are there any others?

[Niki]

Hi Burt

So, you "crossed the pond" to tell the Europeans what is "really" good for them...

Sorry but, it's too transparent that it is actually (free) advertisement...

It was the same with Dino (ez dino), he joined as a member and has exactly 11 posts...guess about what...

He stopped posting after some small argument with me.
The Moderator asked as both to stop posting about the subject...I obeyed but Dino could not "hold himself" and his posts were removed.

If you please have a look at this post, you will see that there is no connection between Dino's post and my reply because his post was removed.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... highlight=

It was not the first time that he did it. He did the same on the Aussie WW forum, disguising as new member that made "shopmade saw guide" and after a few replies the "real" Dino came in to "teach" the Aussie the "better" way...well, they "smelled" him very quick and shown him the way (out).

If you guys want to advertise, why don't you do it like Festool, Makita, Grizzly and other manufacturers that are paying to the site owner and let the forum members to have a discussion about the product.

When a member of this forum (and all the other forums) asks for advise, what to buy...Makita, Hitachi or Festool, I did not see that one of those manufacturers is "stepping in" to "sing the Hallelujah song" of their products...

I think that the key words in every forum is "Sharing" and "Contribution"...knowledge, technics, jigs, fixture etc. for free of charge but, if one is "Sharing" or "Contributing" his product (that you have to pay for), I don't see it as a Contribution nor as Sharing but as an advertisement...

And please don't get me wrong, from reading around, I think that the EZ is a very good product but the way that it is presented in the forums....leaves very bad taste...

Regards
niki

 

[ByronBlack]

=D>
ccasion5:

Well said.

 

[chippy1970]

Well said Niki I had the same argument with Burt a few weeks back about Festool vs EZ but me being an honest trusting sort of a bloke I never thought he could be an EZ salesman I just thought he was a bit weird.

 

[Gill]

Before this proceeds towards greater antagonism, I hope anyone who has a problem with contributions to this thread will make their points privately to a moderator instead of posting publicly.

Russell, it would have been nice to think you wished to participate in discussions about all aspects of woodwork, not merely to comment on your product. I can't help but think that if you had the best interests of our forum at heart, you would have already been contributing to our debates on other matters and showing projects that you had completed. To my mind, your product has already had enough free publicity here. Furthermore, I feel those new members of the forum who have done nothing but promote it are not serving our community so much as they are serving your business interests.

Gill

 

[ByronBlack]

Shocking, just shocking!

 

[Dan Clark]

Shocking, just shocking!

Byron,

What is shocking?

Dan.

 

[ByronBlack]

Shocking, just shocking!

Byron,

What is shocking?

Dan.

The front of the EZ people

 

[Colin C]

Shocking, just shocking!

Byron,

What is shocking?

Dan.

The front of the EZ people

Hi Byron

I think you some of the comments on here have been seen in the wrong way

I have stayed out of it but some of the comments are simply not need and dont help anyone. :roll:

 

[ByronBlack]

The EZ v F debates always go the same way, hence why I tried not to go too far with it - at the end of the day I mentioned the two products in responce to the OP, but there is always an evangelical element to the EZ that always see the need to come crashing into a thread to defend/promote/market their product even though no disparaging comments were made.

This is so boring now, let's put a line under it as it's not helping the thread, otherwise start another thread where this pointless argument can continue ad nauseam.

 

[Dave S]

Oh dear.... I feared the thread would end up going this way. I come back after a weekend away from the forum and it has.....

The EZ v F debates always go the same way, hence why I tried not to go too far with it - at the end of the day I mentioned the two products in responce to the OP, but there is always an evangelical element to the EZ that always see the need to come crashing into a thread to defend/promote/market their product even though no disparaging comments were made.

I quite agree, and as an EZ user I find it quite frustrating - I'm very wary about what I post related to EZ because of this tendency. I don't want anything I post to be misconstrued as a sales pitch, nor do I want anything I post taken up by others for that purpose.

The irony is that the endorsement of the established, regular contributors to this forum is probably far more persuasive than the 'evangelical' type of comments to which you refer.

Dave

 

[engineer one]

from a personal viewpoint, the fact that this thread went from "who makes tracks" to festo v ez is actually more worrying.

there have been tracks of some description almost since circular saws became popular. if you read early reviews you will see that many complain about the inability of their circular saw to cut regular straight cuts for instance.

this was mainly because of the shortness of the guide, and frankly the cheapness of the fixtures.

the two strips of ply were the first, then later the clampn'guide was promoted, then the early versions of the various tracks.

i use the mafell, have made my own, and have also used the festo.
all are ok, but are restricted to their own equipment.

this means that the particular equipment is potentially more accurate.
however the restriction there is the length of the rail, obviously more connectors mean more potential for error. most of use them for cutting up 8x4 boards, so you need two rails to be accurate, a 2500-3000, and a 1220-1300, otherwise you will need to spend a lot of time joining them.

i know a couple of people with the ez, and they have not spent their money on a specific saw, and they too are happy, the problem for a small company is the people automatically expect the product not to be quite top notch. thus if you run the company you would want to promote where and when you can.

but you are not comparing like for like, and it is important not to get too partisan. the ez is a generic product which allows you to use saws of many different makes, so then you are really dependant upon the quality of the saw blades and the spindle accuracy.

certainly in my experience both the mafell and festo come with decent blades, and decent base plates, thus when combined with their own design of rail will give good splinter free cuts.

i cannot comment on bosch or makita, or even skil, but most saws below about 50 quid would i suggest have insubstantial base plates, and thus make it more difficult to get a good finish on any rail.

all these systems have their pros and cons, but frankly they are all much of a muchness in terms of price overall, so the real end question therefore is what quality of saw do you want to get into.

finally a number of people have become very defensive and obdurate about their statements when in fact we are all trying to learn. we all have a budget which needs massaging to decide what to buy, so only with proper sensibly provided information can you make a proper decision.

if you want to use a lot of boards, and maybe don't have the room to have a table saw, (like most of us) then the rail system is a really valuable addition to your tools. in which case, the decision is to my mind made in relation to the saw you want, and the depth of cut you need.

if you are site working more frequently, then the kind of material you will generally cut, and the spaces in which you work are the deciding factor,
along with the fact that certain people might take a liking to your tools, so you tend to think about the cheapest solution.

there is no one answer to this question, and over promoting one thing above another does no one any favours.

if starting out, then the choice is easier, since you can buy a complete system, but if you already have a saw for instance you must look for a solution which allows you to use said saw more easily.

so lets get back to being polite (ish :roll: ) and sensibly informative, without being rudely partisan and rubbishing other products.

this is not a computer which will only work with microsoft

and finally dave you are right about some of the other people on the site, but often their view even when selling is properly informative.

paul :wink:

 

[slarti42uk]

Thank you engineer one for bringing this back to my question.

I do appoligise for sparking up this subject. I'm quite new here and had not seen some of the other posts relating to it.

You are right in that I was not asking for a "one vs other" debate, I just wanted to make sure that I was not missing other systems or rails in my search for "best choice on a budget, with a workmate for a workshop ".

Thank you all for the links and sugestions regarding my options. Rails vs Sytems vs Shop made Jigs. So many choices.

In the interests of diplomacy I will keep my decision private (if it involves one of the comercial options) so as not to notch up a "win" to any side.

Thanks all once again for the help
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[Dan Clark]

IMO, you have nothing to apologize for. It's your money and your needs, and you need to make the best choice. That is all that is important.

I'm a Festool user, but in my opinion, something like an EZ guide or Redline guide is the best option for you.

For some reason, three of my posts were deleted. All were reasoned, fair responses to what I see are posts my company sponsored product promoters. I'm extremely angry about that. I won't be posting here much any more.

In the future, if you decide that Festool products meet your needs, please feel free to join the Festool Owners Group at http://www.festoolownersgroup.com/. Even if you are just interested in looking, please stop by. It is an international group where members are free to speak their minds.

Best regards and good luck in the future,

Dan.

 

[Burt Waddell]

Thank you engineer one for bringing this back to my question.

I do appoligise for sparking up this subject. I'm quite new here and had not seen some of the other posts relating to it.

You are right in that I was not asking for a "one vs other" debate, I just wanted to make sure that I was not missing other systems or rails in my search for "best choice on a budget, with a workmate for a workshop ".

Thank you all for the links and sugestions regarding my options. Rails vs Sytems vs Shop made Jigs. So many choices.

In the interests of diplomacy I will keep my decision private (if it involves one of the comercial options) so as not to notch up a "win" to any side.

Thanks all once again for the help
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There is no need to apologize. This is a big decision. In the states we only have two main systems so it is easier to sample both and then move on from there. In Europe, there must be at least half a dozen.

I would want to make a checklist of things I would like to have in a system. A couple Examples: A quick, easy way to join rails without any alignment problems. Another would be a means to have repeatability so I don't have to measure each cut. This is enough to give you a general idea.

Happy sawing

Burt

 

[Dan Clark]

What Burt is demonstrating is a sales technique called "Lockout Marketing" or "a Lockout Spec". The technique involves a vendor suggesting a checklist of criteria for a good customer solution.

What the customer doesn't realize is that the suggested criteria for that solution are precisely the points that the vendor feels are the strong points of THEIR product. So, when the customer matches their checklist against product specs, they find that a particular vendor's product precisely matches their criteria!" Unfortunately the customer doesn't remember that the needs criteria were suggested by that vendor in the first place. It is called a "Lockout spec" because it is used to "Lock Out" other vendors.

I think the OP has already defined his criteria. If the OP wants to develop additional criteria, that's fine. However, I would strongly urge him to develop that list independent of ANY vendor's suggestions or "examples".

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., I learned this technique from my Sales Manager when I was a salesman over 30 years ago. I spent 16 years in sales and marketing.

 

[Dave S]

I do appoligise for sparking up this subject. I'm quite new here and had not seen some of the other posts relating to it.

Nothing to apologise for - it was a perfectly valid question to ask, and any ensuing tendency towards a one against the other debate was certainly notyour fault!

There are satisfied users of several different systems here, so I'm sure that whichever option you choose, you won't be disappointed.

Dave

 

[pooka]

Something that may be of interest is the most recent Tool Guide magazine produced annually by Taunton:

http://store.taunton.com/onlinestore/item/015005.html

They review a number of competing cutting guide systems (not all with rails, as such), including Festool, EZ Guide, Veritas, etc. It's not a very in-depth review of each, by any means, but might be useful nonetheless.

I don't think it is a review that can really identify a clear "best" choice, for all the reasons that have been discussed already (mainly that different products may be best suited to different tasks), so it is of more use to see what pros and cons are mentioned for each of the products. I also found it useful for the fact that it identified products in this area that I didn't know existed.

I bought my copy of the magazine online. Although I know it is stocked in larger newsagents here in my area of the world, I'm not sure when this particular issue appears on the shelves here or in the UK.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Pooka

Have you found it worthwhile buying?

As, I'd assumed , it would only be reviewing tools available in the US I had always thought it would not be suitable for this side of the pond.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[slarti42uk]

Thanks Pooka,

I would also like to know if this guide covers tools available here in the UK before buying a copy.

Cheers

 

[pooka]

The guide focuses on tools available in the US. There are certainly some powered tools within that that are available outside of the US though (mostly 110V stuff, but the odd 240V tool too such as Laguna bandsaws), and of course the hand tools are widely available. One thing that you do need to be careful of is those tools that appear to be the same model both here and in the US (apart from difference between 240V and 110V), as sometimes the differences are not very apparent on paper e.g. the US model of the DeWalt DW621 router supports both 1/2" and 1/4" collets whereas the European model supports only 1/4".

Mind you, even the range of hand tools on your doorstep might differ from what is covered in the guide too. Certainly, I have had trouble finding decent quality hand tools here in Ireland in the past, so I tend to resort to buying them in from the US, Canada, and elsewhere in Europe and so pretty much any of the hand tools covered in the guide become an option to buy.

Personally, I find the tool guide good, because the discussions about the advantages and shortfalls of various tools can be interesting. As it doesn't cover tools and brands that may be available only in Europe, it won't give an easy answer to the question of how they compare with some of the alternatives, but despite that I think the reviews can give you an idea of some of the issues to look out for in similar tools regardless of manufacturer.

The review of the cutting guide systems is fairly short, so you could manage to read it in a few minutes at the newsagents before deciding whether it is worth buying.