Exploding Pagers - Lebanon

[deema]

Found by whom ? oh yeah, the IDF.
Cant see them being bias.

I agree, that why they have published video footage of each find of the Gaza metro and arms cashes in / under sensitive infrastructure as they knew the world would be sceptical. To the best of my knowledge none of the western countries have found their videos to be a hoax.

I equally can’t think how anyone can support an organisation that took 257 hostages on 7 Oct. of which a number were murdered / desecrated and mutilated which Hamas happily shared on video.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67053011

 

[TRITON]

So let me get this straight.
The IDF, with access to tens of thousands of arms or all types. Shows a vid of a 'cache' of weapons, tells us these belonged to Hamas, and we are supposed to take it as 100% fact

 

[Chris152]

I agree!

https://www.welcometopalestine.com/...partheid-wall-separation-west-bank-palestine/

Well, my 'Oh dear' was just a general comment about the change in direction of the thread but I have to say, that is a brilliant article.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Deema, I see no point in pursuing this "discussion". It is too sickening to read these illiterate comments.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

Deema, I see no point in pursuing this "discussion". It is too sickening to read these illiterate comments.

Regards from Perth

Derek

What do you think of the 40000 deaths inflicted by Israel so far, including large numbers of women, children, foreign aid workers, many of the hostages they say they hope to rescue, etc and an unknown number under the rubble probably totalling 100000 by the time it's all over, not to mention the recent innocent civilians caught out by the exploding gadgets, and the total destruction of most of Gaza? And the attacks on Palestinian farmers and others, and theft of their land in the west bank?

 

[Fergie 307]

In 1993, as part of the Oslo Accords, the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel agreed to an outline for Palestinians to self-govern in the Palestinian territories. In 1994, Israel withdrew from Gaza City and Jericho, giving civilian and city functions to the Palestinian Authority.
Call be dumb, but that’s not Isreal taking land, it’s giving it up. I can site all the times and dates when Isreal has accepted proposals for a two state deal to end hostilities and Palestine has refused.

I think the major problem has always been the extremists on BOTH sides. Those in Israel who absolutely refuse to entertain the idea of, as they see it, giving up land to the Palestinians. And those on the other side, currently Hamas and Hezbollah but many different names over the years, who believe in the total obliteration of Israel.
Whenever saner voices on either side have approached a peaceful solution the extremists on both sides have done their upmost to derail the process, and all to often assassinated those responsible for their perceived treachery.
Until these extremists can be brought under control the situation will not change.
Unfortunately at the moment it is the extremists who are running the show, certainly on the Israeli side.
The recent killing by Israel of a Hamas leader widely perceived to be something of a moderate is a case in point. He will no doubt have been replaced by someone with more extreme views, hence perpetuating the problem, exactly what Netanyahu wants.
And I'm not sure that Hezbollah have ever had anyone in a senior position who could be viewed as being moderate, or remotely interested in peace with Israel.
I imagine that Netanyahu's thought process is that if he can regain complete Israeli control over Gaza then it will be a devil of a job to get them out again.
They are pursuing a similar process in the West Bank, with the IDF standing by whilst settlers grab what they want, and appear to be free to kill any locals who try to resist.
I agree with Jacob that this has been going on for decades, and it is the lack of action on the part of the west to do anything about it that has emboldened those on the Israeli right and brought us to where we are now.
Morally the leaders on both sides are equally corrupt, but the Israelis have the military power to bring about carnage on a scale that Hamas and Hezbollah can only dream of.

 

[TRITON]

What do you think of the 40000 deaths inflicted by Israel so far, including large numbers of women, children, foreign aid workers, many of the hostages they say they hope to rescue, etc and an unknown number under the rubble probably totalling 100000 by the time it's all over, not to mention the recent innocent civilians caught out by the exploding gadgets, and the total destruction of most of Gaza? And the attacks on Palestinian farmers and others, and theft of their land in the west bank?

Dont rise to the bait Jacob. Derek appears not to be able to discuss without insulting people.

Besides he said he was leaving this thread, so no need to engage.

 

[Jacob]

I think the major problem has always been the extremists on BOTH sides. Those in Israel who absolutely refuse to entertain the idea of, as they see it, giving up land to the Palestinians.

Just a detail but the Israelis have never been asked or expected to give up land to Palestinians. Quite the opposite they have been taking it from Palestinians by force, quite outside the terms agreed at the start, 1947 and earlier.
Yes I'll drop out of this thread. It's bizarre and disturbing.

 

[deema]

@Fergie 307 there is an awful lot I agree with in your post. Isreal has only since its creation has only expanded its controlled land following attacks / war declared upon it such as the Yom Kippur war led by Egypt and Syria in October 73. Gaza was ‘given’ to Palestine by Isreal in a peace deal, however, ever since the Palestinians have conducted a terrorist war against Isreal. To defend itself Isreal built a wall around Gaza to stop the suicide bombers crossing the border…..which led to the use of improvised missiles which were / are a daily occurrence. Isreal created / bolstered its air defences such as Iron Dome which effectively almost neutralised the threat.

I actually think Isreal has been very benign in the face of extreme provocation. For example, just look at how American responded after 2996 died in 9/11, the result was circa 176,000 dead in Afghanistan, and circa 150,000 in Iraq. Now, for me, killing sorts nothing out, but I equally have no clue how to resolve what is religious / belief ideology at the extremes which has a stated goal of ‘from the river to the sea let Palestine be free’ that extols the virtues of the genocide of the Jews.

 

[Fergie 307]

Just a detail but the Israelis have never been asked or expected to give up land to Palestinians. Quite the opposite they have been taking it from Palestinians by force, quite outside the terms agreed at the start, 1947 and earlier.
Yes I'll drop out of this thread. It's bizarre and disturbing.

As I said "as they see it"

 

[Fergie 307]

@Fergie 307 there is an awful lot I agree with in your post. Isreal has only since its creation has only expanded its controlled land following attacks / war declared upon it such as the Yom Kippur war led by Egypt and Syria in October 73. Gaza was ‘given’ to Palestine by Isreal in a peace deal, however, ever since the Palestinians have conducted a terrorist war against Isreal. To defend itself Isreal built a wall around Gaza to stop the suicide bombers crossing the border…..which led to the use of improvised missiles which were / are a daily occurrence. Isreal created / bolstered its air defences such as Iron Dome which effectively almost neutralised the threat.

I actually think Isreal has been very benign in the face of extreme provocation. For example, just look at how American responded after 2996 died in 9/11, the result was circa 176,000 died in Afghanistan, and circa 150,000 in Iraq. Now, for me, killing sorts nothing out, but I equally have no clue how to resolve what is religious / belief ideology at the extremes which has a stated goal of ‘from the river to the sea let Palestine be free’ that extols the virtues of the genocide of the Jews.

Looking at the Israeli position it is quite clear that their assessment of acceptable collateral damage has radically changed. There have been a number of interviews with former figures in the Israeli regime who have made this point.
In the past if they had identified the whereabouts of a senior Hamas figure, then if going after them might have led to a small number of innocent deaths as collateral damage that was considered fair enough. If the figure was considered too large then the operation would be abandoned.
Now it would appear that the figure considered acceptable has increased dramatically, to the extent that they are willing to accept huge numbers of deaths as collateral damage.
The idea that they are going to extreme lengths to minimise civilian casualties is simply not credible in view of the numbers being killed.
I fully support Israel's right to defend itself. Some form of action was both inevitable, and entirely justified in light of the Hamas attack.
I believe they have far exceeded what was justifiable as a response, and show no sign of stopping in pursuit of what are, perhaps quite deliberately, unachievable goals.

 

[Stanleymonkey]

@Fergie 307 there is an awful lot I agree with in your post. Isreal has only since its creation has only expanded its controlled land following attacks / war declared upon it such as the Yom Kippur war led by Egypt and Syria in October 73. Gaza was ‘given’ to Palestine by Isreal in a peace deal, however, ever since the Palestinians have conducted a terrorist war against Isreal. To defend itself Isreal built a wall around Gaza to stop the suicide bombers crossing the border…..which led to the use of improvised missiles which were / are a daily occurrence. Isreal created / bolstered its air defences such as Iron Dome which effectively almost neutralised the threat.

I actually think Isreal has been very benign in the face of extreme provocation. For example, just look at how American responded after 2996 died in 9/11, the result was circa 176,000 dead in Afghanistan, and circa 150,000 in Iraq. Now, for me, killing sorts nothing out, but I equally have no clue how to resolve what is religious / belief ideology at the extremes which has a stated goal of ‘from the river to the sea let Palestine be free’ that extols the virtues of the genocide of the Jews.

But saying they haven't yet killed in 6 figure amounts isn't much of an argument. Bit like taking someone who has only lost one relative to someone who lost four and telling them to cheer up it could be worse.

The attacks by Hamas were abhorrent and disgusting.

Israel has regularly attacked and murdered innocent adults, teenagers and children in the territories for many years. Over the last twenty years the Palestinian death toll has often be 10x the Israeli death toll. Palestine has been described as an open air prison. Water and electricity were controlled and regularly shut off by Israel.

During this recent offensive a boy celebrating Ramadan was shot through the chest and killed by Israeli guards in a watchtower 100-200m away. The government praised the 'brave soldier' for killing a future terrorist. If you dehumanize people in this way - it does lead to a better place.

 

[deema]

@Stanleymonkey there are circa 2 million people on Gaza, and the UN has given circa $40 billion in the last twenty years. Thats more than sufficient to build enough electrical generation and water desalination to make them Independant of Isreal with a huge amount left over. Thats not including everyone else’s donations. Now I don’t know what they spent it on, but it’s fairly clear that Hamas didn’t use that huge amount of money to better their population.

 

[deema]

It’s worth mentioning the Isreal has circa 9 million citizens, 7 million Jews, 2 million Arabs and 500k others, all of whom vote for their government. It’s a democratic state with everyone having equal rights, ie all religions / sexual preferences / sex’s. The Israeli president Mosche Katsav was sentenced to prison by an Israeli Arab judge.

 

[Billy_wizz]

Given the amount of electronic stuff we buy from China let's hope they don't get any similar ideas!

Where do you think the Israeli's nicked it from lol

 

[Jacob]

@Stanleymonkey there are circa 2 million people on Gaza, and the UN has given circa $40 billion in the last twenty years. Thats more than sufficient to build enough electrical generation and water desalination to make them Independant of Isreal with a huge amount left over. Thats not including everyone else’s donations. Now I don’t know what they spent it on, but it’s fairly clear that Hamas didn’t use that huge amount of money to better their population.

2 million people on an area slightly smaller than the Isle of Wight, current population 141,000.
Gaza is a prison camp of dispossessed people with no hope of ever being self sufficient.

 

[Croolis]

It should be noted that the actions of Hamas in seeking through conflict to eliminate Israel is genocide, the actions by Israel in defending itself by eliminating the threat is not - although I have no doubt atrocities have been committed by both sides.

The stated vow of Hamas and other radical Islamists (led by Seyyed Ali Hosseini Khameneh) is the eradication of Israel, and then Jews around the world, followed by all who are not Muslim.

These statements are untrue. Destruction of a state is not genocide. Destruction of a "group" is. I guess you could argue that destruction of the Zionists is genocidal towards Zionists, but not all Jews or Israeli are Zionists. Far from it.

Also, Hamas' stated aims are not to eradicate all Jews. If you read the 1988 Hamas Covenant and the more recent 2017 revision, their aim is to liberate Palestine (through destruction of the Israeli state, of course), bring the whole region under Islamic rule because "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."

I don't believe that Hamas has ever explicitly vowed to eradicate all Jews around the world. Those sort of statements come from biased journalists and governments and the like interpreting the Hamas Covenant.

I don't think the lovely people over at Hamas would like to give them all a big cuddle either, mind. That Covenant ain't exactly desirable if you don't want to be ruled over by Islamic governments.

 

[deema]

@Jacob, I think you’ve a really valid point, the population of Gaza is exploding. In 2000 it was a smidge over 1 million, in 1990 about 650K. The mean age of people in Gaza in 2020 was just 18, they are one of lowest aged populations in the world, in other words their numbers are absolutely exploding. A nation that has a population that is increasing dramatically has historically resorted to war to increase its territory for its burgeoning population.

 

[Jacob]

@Jacob, I think you’ve a really valid point, the population of Gaza is exploding. In 2000 it was a smidge over 1 million, in 1990 about 650K. The mean age of people in Gaza in 2020 was just 18, they are one of lowest aged populations in the world, in other words their numbers are absolutely exploding. A nation that has a population that is increasing dramatically has historically resorted to war to increase its territory for its burgeoning population.

T'other way round.
It's a feature throughout the living world, plants, insects, animals, all, that stresses can trigger increased reproduction rates. It's a basic survival mechanism of many species, including ourselves.
Baby booms kick off in wartime and afterwards. I'm a post WW2 boomer myself!
It helps to ensure survival when times are tough, of the group (tribe, species, etc) , not necessarily all the individuals therein. No decision process involved, just a side effect of disturbed and troubled lives with relationships and families dispersed, broken, destroyed.
Conversely where life is easy and unstressed there are reports of falling birth rates and ageing populations.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/unra...aza-population-growth-amidst-liam-egan-i7tdc/

 

[woodieallen]

They have certainly come up with some very clever stuff in the past to eliminate their enemies.

Well, you certainly would given that your enemies proclaimed intent is to kill you.