Energy Saving

[Jacob]

.......

Maybe we need too many horses these days, .....

Certainly do!
I've had two diesels in recent years which have gone into "safe" mode - one because of an air filter the other particulate filter. Both times it meant loss of power and no RPM above 30k. One was on a long motorway trip - couldn't reach 70 except on downhills so max was about 60 average and slow acceleration. Result - got home half hour late but fuel consumption gone from 50mpg to nearly 70! Suits me fine I could do with a permanent safe mode vehicle and nobody else would lose anything much if we all had them too.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

We are simply profligate with energy because it is so cheap. Understand cheap in the context of how long it takes to earn the money at (say) £10 per hour after tax (a fairly modest income).

• drive car and passengers totalling 2000kg 40 miles - cost ~£6, time ~36 mins
• boil 1 litre of water when only 0.5 is needed - cost ~£0.02, time ~<1 min
• cut short the morning shower by 5 minutes - cost ~£0.15, time ~1-2 min
• filling the dishwasher efficiently to reduce by 1 load - £0.30, time ~2 mins
• get the kids to walk a mile to school - cost ~£0.15, time ~2 mins

Compare the cost with other routine expenditure - eg: buy a shirt for £20 - time ~2 hours, meal out for 2 £40, time ~4 hours, Netflix sub ~£80 pa, time ~8 hours.

Reducing energy consumption will only come through a fundamental change in behaviour and habits. The individual cost of day to day energy use is completely trivial. But saving £1 a day through the accumulation of the trivial becomes worthwhile.

Reducing consumption is a win-win - it will result in either lower investment costs for new green energy, or lower emisssion from existing sources if green aspirations are unfulfilled.

How to do it - take lessons from the tobacco industry:

• extensive marketing and information promoting the benefits of quitting energy - not health but community, humanity, pollution, for the kids etc
• massive tax increases (2,3,4 times) on energy with balancing reductions in other taxes.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Another way of looking at the energy in oil: HUMAN ENERGY

1 Barrel of Oil = 5,800,000 BTUs
Source: Louisiana Oil and Gas Association

1 Gallon of Gas = 125,000 BTUs
Source: US Department of Energy

1 Barrel of Oil thus contains the energy contained in 46.4 gallons of gas
(5,800,000 divided by 125,000 = 46.4 )

1 Gallon of Gas = 500 hours of human work output
Source: Calculations Done Above.

1 Barrel of Oil = 23,200 Hours of Human Work Output
(Energy equivalent of 46.4 gallons of gas per barrel of oil x 500 hours of human work output per gallon of gas = 23,2000 hours)
________________

I don't know if the above info is correct, but it makes the point regardless. Oil contains ludicrous amounts of energy. Replacing it is difficult, because nothing else has the same energy density. Not using oil is going to make us poorer, by definition. Poorer means reduced life expectancy.

The equation comes down to:

How many people do you want to die now, to save how many lives at what point in the future?

 

[Spectric]

The problem with electricity is that we don't really comprehend just how much power we use with gay abandon and how difficult it is to both create and store.

The biggest problem is that we cannot create energy, we will always need energy to convert into some other form, ie electricity.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

The biggest problem is that we cannot create energy, we will always need energy to convert into some other form, ie electricity.

Yes of course! The laws of thermodynamics apply.

Having said that, you know what I meant ;-)

All our energy is solar energy at its root. Even tidal energy, which could be construed as lunar, can be traced back to the sun. The abiotic oil theory is interesting, and apparently the reason why Russia has found so much oil in places it shouldn't exist, but it is definitely not subscribed to in the west. Not my area of expertise.

 

[StephenArfer]

1 Barrel of Oil = 5,800,000 BTUs
Source: Louisiana Oil and Gas Association

1 Gallon of Gas = 125,000 BTUs
Source: US Department of Energy

1 Barrel of Oil thus contains the energy contained in 46.4 gallons of gas
(5,800,000 divided by 125,000 = 46.4 )

1 Gallon of Gas = 500 hours of human work output
Source: Calculations Done Above.

1 Barrel of Oil = 23,200 Hours of Human Work Output
(Energy equivalent of 46.4 gallons of gas per barrel of oil x 500 hours of human work output per gallon of gas = 23,2000 hours)

I assume this is tongue in cheek? I believe that sweet crude can produce a maximum of around 40% gasoline. Sour crude yields very little. The conversion is carried out in a refinery cracking plant. The principle is essentially distillation (as in whisky etc.) and requires a significant heat energy input. Many direct and indirect products are drawn from the cracking process. It's difficult to look around and not see at least several examples of day to day products originating from that barrel of crude. Much of that product ends up in landfill or the sea and stays there. You might get the energy for 500 hours of lifting a finger out of a gallon of gas, but I doubt if the energy would be available after the calories required to keep the human body alive for that period of time.

I don't believe we can turn the clock back (sadly), but unless humankind takes radical action we are all on a slippery slope to oblivion. So whilst I don't glue myself to the M25 with the crazies, I just hope that COP26 can achieve something a bit more creative than electric cars powered by energy stored in chemical batteries which are charged with energy from power stations using natural gas, oil or coal to power the generators. If you follow the energy conversion losses from the original chemical source through refinement, to heat energy for the refinery to electrical energy with the backwards and forwards paths and associated conversion and transmission losses, a gallon of gasoline from crude isn't going to keep your electric pride and joy motoring very far. So yes, let's go wind, wave and nuclear power based, but that's not the end of the story.... Corporate and human greed has to be defeated and COP26 is not likely to defeat that.

 

[baldkev]

8 pages?!?!?
I read page 1 before posting this, but it'll probably be a new comment...

If you are serious about saving electricty, see if your neighbour has an outdoor socket. Even if you have to buy an extension lead you will make your money back after about 300 kettle boils

 

[baldkev]

Corporate and human greed has to be defeated and COP26 is not likely to defeat that.

That was a heavy post! Very true though, one of the biggest problems these days is consumerism and our greed as well as corporate greed. By that i nean big companies wanting money and us just wanting 'stuff'.

I am a perfect example. When i am sat down at night, i often find myself searching for 'stuff'..... usually things i can live without or dont really need so now when i notice im doing it, i close down google ( or ebay )

The sheer list of things available now is absolutely crazy. Makita for instance do 4 or 5 battery mowers, a few different battery hedge cutters, 4? Battery Chainsaws, 721 different drills ( ok i made that up ) and now 18v coffee makers, fans, radios and who knows what else. We dont need all that choice.

Unfortunately I cant see an end to the impact we have on the planet.

 

[baldkev]

Does anyone else make tea in the micro wave. Not all the time you understand because that would be odd but I think it tastes better, don't nuke the tea just the water and be careful when you add it as it can over boil. I believe boiling the water in the kettle reduces the oxygen content and that effects the taste.

Why are so many of the people I meet sleep deprived?

You'll murder your microwave. A customer had a cleaning firm for their holiday let that used to put a cup of water in the microwave and buzz it until steaming, to make cleaning the microwave easier. It rusted out fairly quickly

 

[Sandyn]

It's difficult to look around and not see at least several examples of day to day products originating from that barrel of crude

One site says there are more than 6000 products derived from crude oil. I assume very little is wasted. When we move to electric vehicles and the consumption of petrol plummets, oil production will be cut. will that mean a shortage of plastics, butumen, lubricants??

 

[Sandyn]

This is interesting to watch. oil production by country 1965 to 2018.

 

[Droogs]

One site says there are more than 6000 products derived from crude oil. I assume very little is wasted. When we move to electric vehicles and the consumption of petrol plummets, oil production will be cut. will that mean a shortage of plastics, butumen, lubricants??


View attachment 121175

The sooner we get out of the Plastic age the better

 

[Spectric]

Yes of course! The laws of thermodynamics apply.

It proves there is more inteligent people with common sense on these forums than in our government, they ignore scientist, re-arrange statistic's to suit their argument and come up with ideas without any concept of reality or feasability as to implementation.

Corporate and human greed has to be defeated and COP26 is not likely to defeat that.

That is why such an easy problem to solve, ie global warming has become such a challenge, many people know what needs to be done but they just do not have the stamina or willpower. Be interesting to see if bumbling Borris leads by example or waits to follow, proposed new oilfield off Shetland and a coal mine in West Cumbria, neither should proceed if people are taking global warming seriously so if Borris lets them proceed then game on for everyone else.

 

[Sandyn]

The sooner we get out of the Plastic age the better

Wooden TV cabinets ?

 

[Trainee neophyte]

many people know what needs to be done but they just do not have the stamina or willpower.

I'm not convinced people do know what needs to be done. I'm between work this week so I watched the inestimable Boris explain that the UK will be fossil fuel free by some alarmingly close date to now. "What needs to be done" is effectively no more heating, no more fertiliser (no more green farming revolution), certainly no more travel for the untermensch (those still alive, anyway). Either the UK will just import more of everything from countries still using fossil fuels (with what wealth?) or do without. Doing without heat kills people. Doing without food kills people. Not doing the above means keep using fossil fuels, because there is no alternative. The amount of energy required to replace our current lifestyles is mind boggling, and not doable without oil. Allegedly (did I read this here or elsewhere?) a windmill produces enough energy over its lifetime to make two new windmills. Therefore you can double the number of windmills every 20 years or so, providing you don't use the energy for anything else.

To quote Sixth Sense, "I see dead people".

 

[Ozi]

You'll murder your microwave. A customer had a cleaning firm for their holiday let that used to put a cup of water in the microwave and buzz it until steaming, to make cleaning the microwave easier. It rusted out fairly quickly

Must have been a really cheep microwave, the inside of mine is stainless - I have been boiling water, cooking rice and pastor etc for years without a problem.

When my son was about 8 he put pizza on a plastic plate in and left it running for 25 minutes - the fire didn't do that machine any good

 

[baldkev]

Must have been a really cheep microwave, the inside of mine is stainless - I have been boiling water, cooking rice and pastor etc for years without a problem.

When my son was about 8 he put pizza on a plastic plate in and left it running for 25 minutes - the fire didn't do that machine any good

Stainless?? Wow. All of ours have always been a coated thin steel, some last better than others. We had a morphy richards which got rusty because we had one of the microwave sterilisers for baby bottles.
I think the most ive ever spent on a microwave was about 180 quid and i wasnt too happy at that

 

[Trainee neophyte]

I assume this is tongue in cheek? I believe that sweet crude can produce a maximum of around 40% gasoline. Sour crude yields very little. The conversion is carried out in a refinery cracking plant. The principle is essentially distillation (as in whisky etc.) and requires a significant heat energy input

What you are talking about is energy return on energy invested (or eroi). If you set fire to an entire barrel of oil you will get an amount of heat energy; x number of BTUs, which will be the total amount of energy available. If you choose to perform complicated chemical reactions to make various different products, then yes the energy available is less because you threw some away to perform the alchemy.

Our current pinnacle of achievement is dependent on a ratio of about 15 barrels of oil equivalent made available for every barrel of oil equivalent used in its extraction, refining and transport to end use. We are apparently achieving somewhat less than 15, and it's going to get a lot worse. This means there isn't enough energy left over for growth of the economy - hence all the expansion based on financial shenanigans and debt. Now that the green lobby has forced all the alternative energy into the system, along with turning the world economy off for a year, oil companies haven't looked for new fields to develop. We are going to run out of oil just because depleted fields won't be replaced. An enforced, artifical scarcity in other words. The talk is of $200 a barrel oil next year. World recession is guaranteed at about $80 per barrel. What could possibly go wrong?

The current gas price crisis is a good example of incompetence causing scarcity. There will be more of this. Fun times ahead.

On a brighter note, green energy storage might be closer than we think: These Concrete Gravity Trains May Solve the Energy Storage Problem

Low tech, therefore cheap and easy to make. It's a million to one chance, etc.

 

[Fitzroy]

I'm not convinced people do know what needs to be done. I'm between work this week so I watched the inestimable Boris explain that the UK will be fossil fuel free by some alarmingly close date to now. "What needs to be done" is effectively no more heating, no more fertiliser (no more green farming revolution), certainly no more travel for the untermensch (those still alive, anyway). Either the UK will just import more of everything from countries still using fossil fuels (with what wealth?) or do without. Doing without heat kills people. Doing without food kills people. Not doing the above means keep using fossil fuels, because there is no alternative. The amount of energy required to replace our current lifestyles is mind boggling, and not doable without oil. Allegedly (did I read this here or elsewhere?) a windmill produces enough energy over its lifetime to make two new windmills. Therefore you can double the number of windmills every 20 years or so, providing you don't use the energy for anything else.

To quote Sixth Sense, "I see dead people".

Utter guff regards embodied energy in wind turbines. Most of the studies come back with an energy payback period of 7-9 months, vs a life span of 20+ yrs. So each turbine makes c. 28 times is embodied energy during its lifetime.

 

[Ozi]

Stainless?? Wow. All of ours have always been a coated thin steel, some last better than others. We had a morphy richards which got rusty because we had one of the microwave sterilisers for baby bottles.
I think the most ive ever spent on a microwave was about 180 quid and i wasnt too happy at that

If you can spend a bit more and they last years, I'm on my 3rd since we got married, the first I gave away as we needed a bigger one than I'd had when single, fire took the second and I'm still using the 3rd - that covers 26 years of use.