Electrical advice needed please

[2sheds]

Can't get hold of my electrician at the moment and I need to submit a BC application for some work to the bathroom. We are installing a fused spur to run a whirlpool bath from a double socket. We also would like an electric towel rail - question is can the fused spur for this also be run from the same double socket. I've seen some answers from google saying the limit is 1 fused spur per socket, but does a double socket mean I can safely install two?

Any advice appreciated.
Thanks
Steve

 

[Dibs-h]

Can't get hold of my electrician at the moment and I need to submit a BC application for some work to the bathroom. We are installing a fused spur to run a whirlpool bath from a double socket. We also would like an electric towel rail - question is can the fused spur for this also be run from the same double socket. I've seen some answers from google saying the limit is 1 fused spur per socket, but does a double socket mean I can safely install two?

Any advice appreciated.
Thanks
Steve

Only one fused spur per socket (regardless of single or double by the look of it):

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.o...ons/how-many-spurs-can-i-have-on-a-ring-main/
Worse case - put another socket (double or single) next to the existing double and take one fused spur from each socket. Or swap the double for 2 singles next to each other and then take 2 spurs (one each).

Personally I don't see an issue with what you are thinking of doing - but the "requirement" must be there for a reason.

 

[2sheds]

Thanks Dibs-h. That was the site that confused me, but yes, make the double into two singles is a brilliantly simple way to do it.

Thanks

 

[Bingy man]

Without spouting health and safety I’d say to wait for your electrician. In simple terms your current ring main could be at its current limit and adding further spurs could overload it given the load of the whirlpool bath and the towel rail combined. 2 spurs from a double socket converted to to two singles is still being fed from the ring main. Just my opinion as friends of mine suffered a small house fire from faulty electrical outlets-could have lost their house had they been out at the time. Previous owner had wired in a spur and then fed another spur from the 1st one .

 

[Spectric]

for some work to the bathroom

Under the regs a bathroom is classed as a special location that is divided into zones with each having it's own regulations that must be met, so without the required knowledge it is safer to wait for your electrician as @Bingy man has said.

Without looking at your installation or knowing all the details and facts then the normal way this would be done is with a fused spur for each of those items, but the actual spur outlet CANNOT be located in any of the zones, it must be outside of any of them. The actual towel rail can be zone 2 if it meets the IP rating.

 

[Sideways]

... does a double socket mean I can safely install two?

No.

Did you know that a double socket is only rated for 20A total, not 2×13A ?
A double isn't equivalent to two singles.

And as Spectric says, bathrooms are a special location so you need to comply with specific rules.

Is it not cheaper to have a sparky do this and put it through their certification scheme than pay building control who will just subcon a firm of electricians to come in and inspect + test it ?

 

[ps.harris80]

Are you allowed to install sockets in a bathroom, I know many moons ago it was not allowed, have they now changed the regs on sockets in a bathroom ?

 

[baldkev]

Wait for the sparky.
Make sure you get info ready for him, like the power consumption of the whirlpool bath and towel rail.
I really wouldnt risk it, your house insurance wont cover a diy job that burnt the house down....
Near where im working theres a bungalow that was messed with by the owner. She wouldnt pay for a sparky because 'she could connect up the wires'
After the fire the insurance wouldnt pay out and the mortgage company reposessed. It's just sat there doing nothing now.

 

[Spectric]

Are you allowed to install sockets in a bathroom, I know many moons ago it was not allowed, have they now changed the regs on sockets in a bathroom ?

We are talking about fused spurs which are technically known as fused connection units and offer a hardwired solution for items like electric heaters, fans etc .

They look like this Fused Connection Units | Hager UK

and the cable may exit from the front or the side.

Sockets are permitted in a bathroom providing they are at least three metres from any zone, in old money that is 10ft and so you would be looking at a large bathroom. Personally I just don't because you have no control over what is connected, how long the cable is and whether it could be then placed into zone 2 or 1.

 

[Bingy man]

I fitted a kitchen earlier this year including a new line for a 7.5 kw induction hob as the built in oven was wired to the existing cooker supply. As I was navigating through the loft to drop the cable down to the hob I came across this spaghetti junction I also found a live 6mm cable with bare wires exposed just sitting there waiting for someones fingers or hand . I then called in a sparky to make safe and to check all wiring was safe including my own work - glad I did as the previous cowboy had already overloaded the consumer unit and the extra 7.5 kw hob could of caused a fire .

 

[Bingy man]

The first pic is the bathroom and toilet lights and 2 extractors and 2 illuminated mirrors, the other 2 show my wiring to the hob which the sparky tested and was fine . The live wire was connected to a shower pull cord . So moral of the story is always consult a qualified electrician because they have testing equipment that proves it’s safe .

 

[Dibs-h]

I fitted a kitchen earlier this year including a new line for a 7.5 kw induction hob as the built in oven was wired to the existing cooker supply. As I was navigating through the loft to drop the cable down to the hob I came across this spaghetti junction I also found a live 6mm cable with bare wires exposed just sitting there waiting for someones fingers or hand . I then called in a sparky to make safe and to check all wiring was safe including my own work - glad I did as the previous cowboy had already overloaded the consumer unit and the extra 7.5 kw hob could of caused a fire .

The 2nd picture (the one with what looks like a block in the pattress) - any details on the pattress\block?

 

[Bingy man]

The 2nd picture (the one with what looks like a block in the pattress) - any details on the pattress\block?

It’s a standard cooker connection unit ( 45 amp ) fitted to a cavity back box . It then has a blank plate with the cable exiting from the bottom.

 

[trvlr]

Get an electrician and you’re safer. Get it wrong and you may (or may not) live to regret it…

Ideally I’d put whirlpool on its own cct., ensuring of course that it is fully protected too via an rcd. But that may not be practical at this time.

If you go for a fused spur then you need to be sure the typical load on the ring, from which the spur is fed, is not already running close to maximum capacity when everything else is on that ring “powered up”. Never the best practice to push a ring (or any) cct. to maximum capacity. If a cct. is close to max and you power up another (heavy) load, the surge current may trip the mcb etc..

And use a spur with a neon indicator.

 

[Spectric]

Never the best practice to push a ring

The best thing to do with an historical ring is to replace with radials, rings are just an historic leftover from the past and should not be used today. Rings were just thrown in, often one upstairs, one for down and a kitchen ring and in a time when electrical loads and distribution through a house was different than today. Now there is a lot more to the design of an electrical instalation where the loads are more closely matched so you do have more circuits and with RCBO's the failure of any one circuit has no effect on the others, we all remember when the single Rcd tripped and the freezer thawed out or the heating did not come on and something froze in winter.

What bingyman has shown does not surprise me, finding horrors like this was all to common in domestic but luckily much less so in industrial, there was a time when twisting wires together and just taping seemed to be happening everywhere but thankfully has faded away with the availability of good connectors from the likes of Wago.

 

[2sheds]

Thanks for all the replies. I have got hold of my electrician and he will do it properly.

Thanks all
Steve

 

[Bingy man]

Thanks for all the replies. I have got hold of my electrician and he will do it properly.

Thanks all
Steve

A very wise move and good to hear you taken the advice of those who have posted unlike some who ignore good and sound advise.

 

[baldkev]

I fitted a kitchen earlier this year including a new line for a 7.5 kw induction hob as the built in oven was wired to the existing cooker supply. As I was navigating through the loft to drop the cable down to the hob I came across this spaghetti junction I also found a live 6mm cable with bare wires exposed just sitting there waiting for someones fingers or hand . I then called in a sparky to make safe and to check all wiring was safe including my own work - glad I did as the previous cowboy had already overloaded the consumer unit and the extra 7.5 kw hob could of caused a fire .

I always allow for a sparky and plumber on kitchen fits. If they aren't required, the price drops.
Any high draw kit ( ovens, hobs etc ) get a sparky visit..... I'm a chippy, not a sparky. Sure im capable of a straight swap but im not going to be responsible for ensuring the original feed was up to it...

 

[Dabop]

It's funny seeing people still use rings- thats a UK hangover from after ww2 when copper was scarce and expensive, and is pretty much unknown anywhere elsewhere- here in Australia is always been 'spurs' exclusively...
(personally I think rings are a really bad idea- a broken ring can be a source for house fires- and judging by the number I see on the UK sparky youtube channels I watch, they seem more often broken than not....)

 

[Bingy man]

I always allow for a sparky and plumber on kitchen fits. If they aren't required, the price drops.
Any high draw kit ( ovens, hobs etc ) get a sparky visit..... I'm a chippy, not a sparky. Sure im capable of a straight swap but im not going to be responsible for ensuring the original feed was up to it...

Just re- read my post, and what I omitted was that I didn’t make the final connection to the consumer unit just ran the cable to it ..