Electric vehicles

[selectortone]

it took 25 years for the first petrol station to open in England. Up until that point you had to buy petrol in two gallon cans from the chemist

Yes, and electric cars existed at the beginning of the 20th century too. In fact one held the vehicular land speed record. It was only when mass-producers like Henry Ford put their weight behind the ICE that they died out.

 

[Vulcan]

Yes, and electric cars existed at the beginning of the 20th century too. In fact one held the vehicular land speed record. It was only when mass-producers like Henry Ford put their weight behind the ICE that they died out.

I read many years ago that Henry Ford initially never intended his cars to run on Petrol, he thought Ethanol was a better choice?

 

[Vulcan]

I would love an electric car as I usually do short local journeys but I don't have off street parking and although the car is parked next to the house it's across 20m of public green and the main footpath. There are no windows or doors on that gable end of the house and I wouldn't feel comfortable running a charging lead over the grass or footpath for any little ferrel scroat to f about with. Add to that the grass is like a bog 6 months of the year I yet again did the sensible thing yesterday and spent £30,000 on a new petrol mini. Hopefully the charging situation will improve when I next need to change the car.

Gerry

I would have done the same in your position Gerry. Well, not sure about the Mini though!

 

[John Brown]

Good point. It’s also easy to forget all the objections made against the motor car when they first came out.
And all those that complain about lack of chargers etc also forget that it took 25 years for the first petrol station to open in England. Up until that point you had to buy petrol in two gallon cans from the chemist. But they still caught on. EV’s are already way ahead in comparison with anything up to 60% of motorists being able to refuel at home.

Petrol cars never appeared as a fully formed system with all the support in place. Why is it that electric vehicles have to have everything needed to support 33 million of them now, all at once? Can’t the charging network be built up as needed to support them. The rollout seems to me to be progressing quite well:

View attachment 173549

Although I'm not anti-EV, and I believe a lot of the obstacles can and will be overcome in time, I don't think that citing the 25 year period without filling stations will do much to reassure the EV sceptics!

 

[RupertV]

'Little inconvenience" ? That's crazy. How about enough charging points across the country for those without private drives ? I don't call that 'little inconvenience".

I think 'the little convenience' would also be be dependant on your financial situation, not everyone is on big wages or big pensions.

 

[John Brown]

“We’ll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective.” – Kurt Vonnegut​

 

[Just4Fun]

Petrol cars never appeared as a fully formed system with all the support in place. Why is it that electric vehicles have to have everything needed to support 33 million of them now, all at once?

Could it be because sales of ICE vehicles are to be banned, thus forcing everyone to change to electric vehicles relatively quickly? When petrol vehicles were introduced nobody banned the sale of horses or bicycles so there was no urgent need for the infrastructure to support petrol vehicles to appear in a definite timeframe.

 

[Vulcan]

The ban on the sale of new ICE cars is *11 years away. And you’ll still be able to buy second hand ones after that.

As I remember, when the date of 2040 for a potential ban was announced, some motor manufacturers complained it was too far off. It was brought forward initially to 2035? But this was still deemed by many to be too far off. 2030 was the final year settled upon until Rishi put it back up to 2035. Some motor manufacturers of course complained about this but Rishi thinks it’s a vote winner for the Tory’s at the next election?

* Whether you’ll still be able to buy an ICE car then will be decided by the manufacturers, certainly the Japanese still hope to it seems.

 

[mc281]

You've missed the point Norman. The "planet" will survive but life on earth as we know it, including yours, is under threat.

Actually I think you have missed Norman's point!

 

[mc281]

Still widely used around the world and thoroughly modern.

You've missed the point. Private transport is becoming unsustainable anyway, not just climate change but sheer pressure on space and infrastructure. Every town and village in Britain is overwhelmed with parking issues and obstructed streets. Easy to forget but it has only been 70 years or so since the start of the private car explosion. One generation (mine) in fact.

 

[mc281]

Almost 50 years ago, as an Associate Member of the institute of Motor Engineers and a Member of the Central Register of European Engineers I had a freebie visit to the Ford factory at Dagenham. They gave us the full tour and access to the brain bods in the company and laid on a fabulous buffet.... The buffet break ran on for a couple of hours as a talking shop because Ford were trying to judge what trends they should consider for the next decade or so.
In a room full of like minded fully. trained and enthusiastic techy guys you may imagine the discussions..... Bare with me...... I'm getting there.....
The Ford gurus of the time were convinced that petrol would be phased out in around 30 years time from then and that small turbo-charged diesels were the likely way forward, due to space restrictions on roads and in towns.
However the consensus from us AMIMI guys was the solution would be better if free public transport and infrastructure was developed and then the pollution was moved from the end user to the central power generation with the latest emissions controls at source.
It seems that both sides of the argument have hardly changed and both sides of the argument have similar traction.
I remain frustrated!
Efficient, free at the point of use public transport that is reliable and well connected is probably still the only way to loosen the grip of massive ownership of vehicles by individuals and leave room for what will remain as essential vehicles IMO.

 

[Lons]

Red hot bus service in Wimbledon, not the first electric bus fire it seems.
Nice and toasty in London today

 

[Vulcan]

Meanwhile in Bradford:

 

[paulrbarnard]

Meanwhile in Bradford:

View attachment 173618

It’s almost like there is an agenda…

 

[John Brown]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-67944753.amp
This is a silly game.

 

[pe2dave]

"

Hertz is Selling 20,000 Electric Vehicles To Buy Gasoline Cars Instead​

• 1/11/2024
• 8:42 PM
• Slashdot
• msmash
• Web site view

quonset writes: Hertz rental has announced it's selling off one third of its 20,000 electric vehicle fleet and replacing them with gas powered vehicles. The reason? It's costing them too much to repair damaged EVs and their depreciation is hurting the bottom line. "[C]ollision and damage repairs on an EV can often run about twice that associated with a comparable combustion engine vehicle," Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr said in a recent analyst call. And EV price declines in the new car market have pushed down the resale value of Hertz's used EV rental cars.
"

 

[Spectric]

but not using wires, rails and pick ups. It is a 100+ year old technology, effective at the time, but almost certainly conceptually and practically obsolete.

If the train is not a diesel electric or battery then you have to have the catenary and overhead wires until the day the maglev becomes viable on a larger scale, it may be very old but is still used by the fastest trains around.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Almost 50 years ago, as an Associate Member of the institute of Motor Engineers and a Member of the Central Register of European Engineers I had a freebie visit to the Ford factory at Dagenham. They gave us the full tour and access to the brain bods in the company and laid on a fabulous buffet.... The buffet break ran on for a couple of hours as a talking shop because Ford were trying to judge what trends they should consider for the next decade or so.
In a room full of like minded fully. trained and enthusiastic techy guys you may imagine the discussions..... Bare with me...... I'm getting there.....
The Ford gurus of the time were convinced that petrol would be phased out in around 30 years time from then and that small turbo-charged diesels were the likely way forward, due to space restrictions on roads and in towns.
However the consensus from us AMIMI guys was the solution would be better if free public transport and infrastructure was developed and then the pollution was moved from the end user to the central power generation with the latest emissions controls at source.
It seems that both sides of the argument have hardly changed and both sides of the argument have similar traction.
I remain frustrated!
Efficient, free at the point of use public transport that is reliable and well connected is probably still the only way to loosen the grip of massive ownership of vehicles by individuals and leave room for what will remain as essential vehicles IMO.

I am unsurprised at the Ford POV as they would inevitably favour a private ownership model, not one which may likely undermine their very existence.

Free at the point of use is an interesting concept but unlikely to be attractive to most - adoption would need to be forced unless frequency was very high. Although private ownership costs are high, most compare costs of public transport with marginal (mostly fuel) cost of a private car.

It would however be interesting to model the resources required to fully provide a medium size town (population say 60k) with a free at the point of use, frequent, comprehensive and regular public transport service.

Technology has moved on in 50 years. 52% of all trips are less than 3 miles, and 80% less than 10 miles. Only 2% are greater than 50 miles. The optimal solution may be small EV autonomous pods summoned by app for all urban journeys of less than (say) 10 miles.

This would provide 90%+ of the functionality of a private car (door to door, on demand etc) with additional capability - no parking issues, children and disabled users. Design of housing, roads, city centres, retail parks could eliminate much currently devoted to parking spaces.

The typical private car sits idle for 23 hours a day - although there would be demand peaks, utilisation of autonomous EVs would be substantially better.

 

[Furniture Restorer]

There is only one way to conserve energy. And that

Almost 50 years ago, as an Associate Member of the institute of Motor Engineers and a Member of the Central Register of European Engineers I had a freebie visit to the Ford factory at Dagenham. They gave us the full tour and access to the brain bods in the company and laid on a fabulous buffet.... The buffet break ran on for a couple of hours as a talking shop because Ford were trying to judge what trends they should consider for the next decade or so.
In a room full of like minded fully. trained and enthusiastic techy guys you may imagine the discussions..... Bare with me...... I'm getting there.....
The Ford gurus of the time were convinced that petrol would be phased out in around 30 years time from then and that small turbo-charged diesels were the likely way forward, due to space restrictions on roads and in towns.
However the consensus from us AMIMI guys was the solution would be better if free public transport and infrastructure was developed and then the pollution was moved from the end user to the central power generation with the latest emissions controls at source.
It seems that both sides of the argument have hardly changed and both sides of the argument have similar traction.
I remain frustrated!
Efficient, free at the point of use public transport that is reliable and well connected is probably still the only way to loosen the grip of massive ownership of vehicles by individuals and leave room for what will remain as essential vehicles IMO.

One of my teachers back in the 1970's was a committed communist but thought Ford was a shining example of what he called 'the beauty of big' and was showing the world how capitalism (done correctly) could improve the lives of man. He was so smitten that he somehow wangled a field trip to Dagenham over three days. We started at the wharf where all the raw materials came in and over three days witnessed the whole process of turning metal sheet and ingots and other items into cars. He marveled that they even had their own power station. It was a time of go-slows, strikes and what was probably the nadir of British worker/management relations. I found the place rather rundown and demoralising. It didn't put me off going into engineering though. Albeit only for a few years.

 

[Vulcan]

If the train is not a diesel electric or battery then you have to have the catenary and overhead wires until the day the maglev becomes viable on a larger scale, it may be very old but is still used by the fastest trains around.

Electrified rails have been around for decades.