Electric vehicles

[bilboburgler]

There is a logic that any office or business that employes staff using cars to get to work have to provide parking spaces and charging points. There are some pretty good papers on using office worker's cars as giant batteries (and at home) to help bridge variations in power generation. Rather like one does at home, just plug you solar cells into the car charger and use the battery of the car to run your home at night. Easy.

 

[user 43593]

There is a logic that any office or business that employes staff using cars to get to work

COVID-19 accelerated a process of changing the profile of how we work. Many folk worked from home where possible and many businesses saw an advantage in losing large office premises. Post COVID-19, we seem to be seeing working hour reductions across Europe and many traditional work roles are disappearing fast, especially with the advent of a rapidly evolving use of AI where we can see that there is a reduction in need for the physical presence of people.

The process started decades ago in the UK after we lost many of the industries that helped to kickstart the industrial revolution. Contrast and compare call centre operative with shipbuilding, mill working, engineering, coal mining &c. Recently, I was surpised to learn my postman works 12 hour shifts for six days per week, in an industry that really should have made significantly more progress with the advent of robotics and AI.

The foregoing paragraph is a side note...just to underpin the idea that work as we know it is changing fast and armies of employees using their cars to get to work is not a very likely possible future.

 

[MikeJhn]

Recently, I was surpised to learn my postman works 12 hour shifts for six days per week, in an industry that really should have made significantly more progress with the advent of robotics and AI.

I think you will find your postman is not giving you the whole story about how much voluntary overtime they work.

 

[user 43593]

Recently, I was surpised to learn my postman works 12 hour shifts for six days per week, in an industry that really should have made significantly more progress with the advent of robotics and AI.

I think you will find your postman is not giving you the whole story about how much voluntary overtime they work.

Sure... I don't think he works 72 hours per week every week.

 

[sploo]

So I have to stay in the pub for 8 hours? Oh, OK then. I'll have another.

Good point well made.

 

[sploo]

VED and Road Tax are different entities? Semantics. We pay have to pay VED if we take our car on the road, therefore it's road tax.

I think the argument is that it's the vehicle that's taxed (based on impact, including environmental). I don't doubt there will be plenty of exceptions, and cases where the cost doesn't appear to line up with the vehicle in question.

 

[Mikebart]

Recently, I was surpised to learn my postman works 12 hour shifts for six days per week, in an industry that really should have made significantly more progress with the advent of robotics and AI.

I think you will find your postman is not giving you the whole story about how much voluntary overtime they work.

I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn what working hours some employers insist that you work if you want a job.
I am now retired but have spent my working life in various hands on jobs, some good and some not too good.
My last company got taken over and went the fire/rehire route, all the good engineers left mainly due to having to work every other Sunday and every Saturday that means 13 days work without a break, no finish time and must do at least 5 jobs a day.
Whilst i agree that 72 hours sound wrong , voluntary overtime is a questionable assumption.
I gave two weeks notice and retired.

 

[Spectric]

This idea of loads of EV's all pluged into charging points and helping spread the load on the national grid sounds like keeping your cake whilst wanting to eat it. To me this sounds like lending a neighbour your cordless powertool and then the next morning when you want to use it, it does not have enough charge to do your task. Rather than just dismiss EV's people should look at them as two systems working together, the motor and drive control systems are proven technology but are of no use without the other system which is the power source, ie the batteries which is where all the issues arise. So Hybrids really offer the shorter term solution needed whilst we try and get battery technology and charging infrastructure where it needs to be, solving the issues of waiting for a charging point to become availabe and then waiting whilst it charges plus no concerns over distance.

With the ICE vehicle it was not uncommon at one time for people to carry a petrol can in case they ran out of fuel, early fuel gauges could be unreliable so with an EV perhaps the modern equivalent of the petrol can is a small generator and a flask with sandwiches to eat whilst you wait.

 

[sploo]

This idea of loads of EV's all pluged into charging points and helping spread the load on the national grid sounds like keeping your cake whilst wanting to eat it. To me this sounds like lending a neighbour your cordless powertool and then the next morning when you want to use it, it does not have enough charge to do your task.

The intention of the vehicle to grid standards is to have calendar type information of when you'll need your EV, and when (and even if) you'd accept charge being taken from your car.

E.g. it makes sense to take charge from your EV today if you're not using it, and the weather forecast is clear for tomorrow (so it can be recharged using solar).

Also, the idea of V2G is also to smooth out load on the grid; so while power may be taken at 7pm (to help the grid) the car would then be recharged at, say 2am when the grid is "quiet".

Granted this would be problematic for users with very random needs (e.g. doctors who may get called out overnight with zero notice), but that would be a minority of people.

 

[Rhossydd]

VED and Road Tax are different entities? Semantics. We pay have to pay VED if we take our car on the road, therefore it's road tax.

No, it's related to emissions. If you have an electric car you pay no VED. Less emissions less VED, with a few notable exceptions.

 

[paulrbarnard]

VED and Road Tax are different entities? Semantics. We pay have to pay VED if we take our car on the road, therefore it's road tax.

So NI in the same as income tax? You have to pay both if you earn money so they are the same right? No you don’t have to pay VED to take a car on the road. EV do not pay VED.

 

[Spectric]

EV do not pay VED

Yet is the missing word.

Do you think the government can afford to lose all that income from Road Tax bearing in mind they will also be losing the duty on fuel ! That duty will end up on charging points .

 

[sploo]

Yet is the missing word.

Do you think the government can afford to lose all that income from Road Tax bearing in mind they will also be losing the duty on fuel ! That duty will end up on charging points .

Absolutely; but there's no conspiracy there. Governments will modify tax rules over time in order to try to shape behaviour (e.g. lower taxes for types of vehicles considered to be "greener" at that point in time). Inevitably VED will be charged on EVs, and somehow the taxes on petrol and diesel will have to be replaced by something else (be that per-mile charging for driving, or charging a higher unit rate for electricity for EVs).

 

[Rhossydd]

An interesting approach for maintaining revenue once EVs become common;
https://www.icelandreview.com/news/reduced-incentives-for-electric-vehicle-ownership/

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No, it's related to emissions. If you have an electric car you pay no VED. Less emissions less VED, with a few notable exceptions.

I pay the VED on mine in order to put it on the road, therefore it's a tax. If it were an electric vehicle I wouldn't have to - but then if I never went on the road I wouldn't have to pay it either. It's a tax.

 

[Blackswanwood]

It has already been announced that EV’s will be subject to VED from April 2025.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That taxation systems and rates will evolve to compensate for the loss of fuel and vehicle excise duty is to be expected.

Tax influences behaviour and is part of a social and environmental strategy - (a) continue the incentive to transition to EV, (b) raise revenue, (c) influence the use of private vehicles and (d) equitably impact all users.

The implementation will depend on ease and cost of collection, and limiting avoidance.

IMHO road pricing is likely to be a major element and may be road (m/ways, A road only?), time and vehicle dependant. Other options of taxing recharging may be more complex due to the diversity of charging options - public chargers, cheap night rates, PV arrays etc.

 

[Sachakins]

There is a logic that any office or business that employes staff using cars to get to work have to provide parking spaces and charging points. There are some pretty good papers on using office worker's cars as giant batteries (and at home) to help bridge variations in power generation. Rather like one does at home, just plug you solar cells into the car charger and use the battery of the car to run your home at night. Easy.

That's V2H and V2G, vehicle 2 house, vehicle to grid.
Being trialled currently, but the existing home charges can't do it, and only a handful of cars are currently compatible.

V2H/G chargers are still unproven and extortionate prices predicted.

Plus the push back from EV owners concerned it will degrade batteries quickly and confirmation from manufacturers that the cars battery warranty won't be voided either yet.

It's another possible future benefit, but early days yet.

 

[selectortone]

Do you think the government can afford to lose all that income from Road Tax bearing in mind they will also be losing the duty on fuel ! That duty will end up on charging points

You say that like it's a big secret that's going to be sprung on gullible EV owners who are falling into some kind of trap. I don't think that's the case at all. People are expecting changes in VED to occur.

I live in a close of 28 houses. There are already four EVs here. Plus two hybrids, and my house has a charge point my daughter uses. That charge point, by the way, is intelligent enough to limit charging if my tumble dryer or washing machine is drawing current so that my ancient old electrical system isn't overloaded. Not a problem usually as my daughter's car is intelligent too and wakes up to charge in the wee small hours when I'm asleep. And the charge point tells her how much of my electricity she's used. EVs aren't in some science fiction future, they are here now.

 

[sploo]

Plus the push back from EV owners concerned it will degrade batteries quickly and confirmation from manufacturers that the cars battery warranty won't be voided either yet.

Can't recall the exact details but I read some research on this that indicated that the impact on battery life (due to V2X) turns out to be very small; to the degree that it's likely not a problem.