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Rorsach's question has sprung one in my mind.
Given that it is now feasible to 3D print a house and that there are some of these machines claiming to use recycled building material (as much as 45% - I think) in the paste mix they use. Would these printed house not be of an inferior strength in their structure as I have always thought you can't reuse mortar of old bricks. ie you just crush it and mix it up to build a new wall. Am I missing something, does the reused material just act as an inert filler like hardcore?
 
Wasn't HS2 also estimated at £40bn, and look were that is now.
Now there's a budget spend with minimal gain for end user. Just like the £12bn for smart meters.

So cost projections just finger in air guesses I think.
I think the key difference is this is a private company market driven plan whereas HS2 is using taxpayers money. This investment is in known technology and markets by private capital. The grid is owned by 3 private companies in the England its National grip plc (owned by investors including Maquarery of Australia) and they charge the generators and consumers for using it. They are using private finance to do it. They are pressing to make this investment, so it wont be taxpayers money that is invested. They want to make this investment as they make good returns on capital, they expect to generate £3.2bn extra revenue from this investment ie about 8% which is way better for the pension funds than UK government bonds. The issue about it, is that we the consumer are taking the investment risk through our electricity bills, see later.
The companies expect to get a payback as they plan to sell more electricity to consumers to charge their cars (ie money to the grid not the oil companies) and eventually the switch away from gas. They get paid by both the generators - new wind farms etc, and the consumer. Your question raises an interesting point, why is Ofgem the regulator giving sanction to this investment if its by private companies? Its because, it is a regulated market, we consumers, have no choice but to buy from the grid, so if they make poor investment decisions that will impact on our bills. If the grid owners spend the £40bn and the market does not grow, then we will pay more per unit than we would have done. So there is a difference between this and HS2, in that we will be paying for it through our electricity bill, either by paying a similar price to what we pay now (there are reasons to believe the price could decline as cheaper power becomes available) but consuming more energy gives the companies their payback. Conversely, if the market does not grow, we can expect to see the price per unit rise to pay for an unnecessary investment. The argument in the article I referenced as about the guaranteed capital return of 0.54% that pretty much incentivise the industry to make capital investment. So the regulators role is to due diligence the need and the efficiency of these investments.

The other factor is the grid has suffered from years of underinvestment as heavy industry declined in the 1980s early 1990s. Transmission losses are currently about 9% of the power. By modernising the infrastructure and installing some efficient interconnects we will reduce the transmission losses. This exercise was last done in the mid 1960s when they had a simple solution of increasing the transmission voltage from 265kv to 400kv which could be done on existing power lines. Then the problem was generation was in the midlands coal fields and consumption was in the home counties. This time round new capital infrastructure is needed to boost voltage and power transmission eg the Western HVDC link from Scotland to North West England/Wales in 2013, which cost £1bn. Now the issue is connecting North Sea wind farms to the consumers in the south east.
In simple terms if EVs take off our cost per unit of electricity will be lower over the longter, but if Evs don't then expect to pay more per unit!
 
I cant agree with your optimism and what you quote.
This is China we are talking about, and while they spout what the west wants to hear they continue down their own path.
There are failing in the rosy picture you paint.
Firstly the push for more coal power stations goes directly against their climate change goals.
In fact emmisions increased by 2% and 65% of the annual growth in energy consumption came from fossil fuels.
But the main fact is that to sustain Chinas growth, which has been mightily hampered by covid, they have to continue churning out products for the western world, and it doesnt matter how China dresses this up, its entire economy relies on being a cheap sub contractor at the moment, with a cheap labour force and a government that ignores human rights.
China has little intention of changing the way it makes money at the moment Climate change or not.
And who in the western world will upset the equilibrium, despite the vile way we continue to support China by buying its goods?
Can you imagine the uproar when all the lefties and wokes cant get a set of stick on acrylic nails for under fifety quid?

China will continue telling the West what it wants to hear and doing what China does best.
Looking after China..
.......
and low and betide anyone who believes what come out of the dragons mouth
I agree with you that China will do what it wants and will use its PR/propaganda internally and externally to promote its interests, quite ruthlessly. However they are vulnerable to climate change themselves, more so that we are in the north northern hemisphere. Its for this reason that I belive they are taking climate change serously. The evidence seems to support it. Clean energy investment worldwide by major country 2019 | Statista. They are making huge investment in green energy, even the size of their economy its 15 times what the UK is doing.
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Its also its in their interests to encourage and support the west in investing in climate change, as you say we are all in it together so we have a mutual interest in making these investments. Finally there is an economic gain to be a leader in a new market

. The Chinese culture and politics is to play a long game, they have done this for centuries and for the past 45 years in economics and politics, their stance over Hong Kong etc was to play the long game, wait for 1999 and treaty revision and grind their way through to where they want to go. President Xi seems unusual to me in his hurry to change things and his outward aggression and ruthlessness, we have not seen a dictator of his ilk in China since Mao, but nevertheless the Chinese culture is to play the long game, and they will more easily find the political will to invest in climate change over the long term than we will.
The Chinese government is highly technocratic, its dominated by engineers and economists that are planning for gain over the long term. Its in this context that I see optimism for climate policy in China. They are less influenced (but not immune) by short term politics and they have great power to influence internal debate in their country.

Climate change is not a zero sum game, unless the majority of industrialised nations adopt similar environmental policies no-one will see the benefit. Hence the politics behind COP26, the Kyoto and Paris protocols. China is no different to the US, EU and UK in needing to balance medium term growth with climate policy, so their approach is nuanced in that they are rapidly urbanising and industrialising but at the same time they need to improve local air and water quality and mitigate climate change for their own self interested reasons.
There is a short to medium term economic incentive. Once technology reaches a tipping point then there will be money to be made. So smart investors will chose when to switch from backing existing money earners such as oil and gas to new energy investments. The Chinese have an eye of this prize too. They are no different to other nations in looking to make an economic gain from these. Even in the USA despite Trumps ambivalence to climate change, US industry continue to invest in wind and Solar and disinvest in coal as the new industries are reaching an economic tipping point. I'm almost more concerned about this aspect of chinas prowess than I am about their seriousness in tackling climate change - after all its a chinese wind energy company that bought the Nissan giga battery factory in Sunderland, so far that is the UKs only Li-ion giga factory that is in production.

I share your concerns about Chinese economic dominance and many of their underhand approaches to competition, in fact it was a policy that Trump got right to challenge the Chinese on. They have hugely benefited from joining the WTO, but have cheated on a large scale and the WTO has been far to slow to react. I work for a tech company and we have had to install highly sophisticated software to protect us Chinese and Russian hacks. One of our sites employs ex Gurkhas to keep intruders out (its a sensitive factory and a Chinese company sprung up opposite on the business park) - the police have commented on the state intruders get handed over in. I think the UKs investments post covid and in infrastructure should have a strong policy of national resilience against unfair competition.
I'm not sure that the economic data support the view that China has suffered economically from Covid, from an initial hit last spring, they have seen record export demand (from western consumers) and the economy grew 18% last year that is a record for the past 8 years. Breakneck growth following industrialisation in late 90s to 2010 have seen more modest growth of 6% as they the economy has matured. In fact national policy was to move away from export driven growth to consumer driven growth reflecting the maturity of their economy, Covid seems to have set this back. Demand from china has been so great that it has distorted global shipping and lead to shortages of containers etc. I share your concern


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concern about our reliance on Chinese manufactured goods. I'd like to see a better balance in trade. But I do see common cause with China on climate change. Hope that makes sense.
 

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The argument for EV use is strong but simply unaffordable for a vast majority of motorists.
So unless you are happy to rent an EV( PCP or lease) then they are not anywhere in the ballpark when it comes to cost and I'm not wiping out a quarter of my saving to buy one, when I can buy an acceptable car for under 20k
Yes, if charged at home, the cost is low but as we all know, when the crossover point is reached , the government will hammer the public charge points with taxes and connection charges.
Anyway , I couldn't get a rapid charger in my immediate vicinity, as the network provider has just maxed out on capacity without upgrading the local network. There are 4 rapid chargers in households nearby.
Look up EV infrastructure plans in your local electricity network suppliers website, it makes interesting reading
The UK EV market is still quite immature, its really only just moving from the early adopter stage. My view working in the supply industry (battery materials) is costs will fall as production ramps up. The deadline of 2030 is a problem for the industry as its has huge investments to make, but all the indications are that the cost of EVs will fall. One issue is that the running costs are much lower than ICE - the folk in Nissan in Sunderland tell me the sales of after parts such as exhausts and brakes etc has plummeted as electric motors are so reliable. So at point in the near future, there will be a case to pay capital up front for lower running costs - I bit like LED bulbs, that will be hard for some consumers to take advantage of, but over the next 10 years we will see EVs become cheaper than ICE as manufactures ramp down ICE product and ramp up EVs.
 
no it aint, if it was you would know. Things change guys - adapt improvise and overcome or die by the wayside.
Things are changing for the worse in the name of climate change and we are being charged for it. Everything is seen as a revenue stream for those who govern. That fool, mayor of london has imposed ridiculous rules and fines, at the detriment of business and residents and the air is far worse than before. People of london cut their noses to spite their face by voting him back in.
 
Rorsach's question has sprung one in my mind.
Given that it is now feasible to 3D print a house and that there are some of these machines claiming to use recycled building material (as much as 45% - I think) in the paste mix they use. Would these printed house not be of an inferior strength in their structure as I have always thought you can't reuse mortar of old bricks. ie you just crush it and mix it up to build a new wall. Am I missing something, does the reused material just act as an inert filler like hardcore?
Interesting point. Quite a bit of 3D print PR is just that. Its great for some purposes such as rapid prototyping and making of scare parts but there are a lot of challenges in replacing existing manufacturing processes. Trying to get the strength into a composite structure - ie one with binders and aggregates or fibres is a major challenge for 3D and subject to a lot of UK university work in reality some of the problems are really very hard to commercialise.
On the other hand, progress is being made in re-using old construction materials. Its a very active development space right now and about time too in my view, We desperately need to figure out how to avoid landfill by re-purposing old aggregates etc. The first generation of wind farms are approaching end of life so a lot of thought is going into what to do with the old blades and how to make the replacements last longer (relatively easy to do) but be made in a way they can be recycled or repurposed into construction (much more challenging).
 
Can you see that being installed in poor neighbourhoods though?
That will depend to some extent of political will. Cars are so essential that there will be a case to treat it as an essential asset like the post or interenet and there will be a mixture of subsidies and a requirement for the operating companies to cross-subsidise rural and poor areas from income generated in richer areas.

The other technology trend that will help towns and cities will be the rise of autonomous vehicles. There are companies with ambitions to hire out cars by the hour in a similar way to Airbnb. Most cars sit in car parks doing nothing for most of the day. There will be a market for cheap autonomous taxis, the car takes someone to work and then goes of to do another delivery before returning to pick the person up later in the day. That re-use of assets is predicted to lower overall car volumes. this trend is being seen in big cities with good urban transport and also the uber effect. Several cities are seeing this, in Paris, some of the underground car parks that were built under the Paris streets in the 1960s and 1970s are being re-purposed for other uses as car ownership has declined.
 
That will depend to some extent of political will. Cars are so essential that there will be a case to treat it as an essential asset like the post or interenet

Poor areas tend to have less post offices, slower internet, less community facilities in general. A sudden change about to happen? better watch out for pig turds landing on your EV in your driveway.
 
That will depend to some extent of political will. Cars are so essential that there will be a case to treat it as an essential asset like the post or interenet and there will be a mixture of subsidies and a requirement for the operating companies to cross-subsidise rural and poor areas from income generated in richer areas.

The other technology trend that will help towns and cities will be the rise of autonomous vehicles. There are companies with ambitions to hire out cars by the hour in a similar way to Airbnb. Most cars sit in car parks doing nothing for most of the day. There will be a market for cheap autonomous taxis, the car takes someone to work and then goes of to do another delivery before returning to pick the person up later in the day. That re-use of assets is predicted to lower overall car volumes. this trend is being seen in big cities with good urban transport and also the uber effect. Several cities are seeing this, in Paris, some of the underground car parks that were built under the Paris streets in the 1960s and 1970s are being re-purposed for other uses as car ownership has declined.

Not sure what you have there, but even in a moderate metro area like where I live (1.2MM in the county with the city and 2.2MM total in the metro area), you can rent cars by the hour with app.

We have a vernacular, let's say, road system here since it's appalachia - you can't just lay out a grid. Uber tested autonomous/self driving volvo SUVs for quite some time here and they did well. I think one person was hit (killed?) on a bike, and you may say "OH GOD!!", but I'm not sure with as many miles as they drove that they didn't have an overall better safety record than cars with drivers intervening.

The way the system worked, a driver was still in the car with their hands under the wheel ready to intervene. This is a stupid idea in terms of hoping for thousands of hours of sitting and doing nothing and thinking that a $10 an hour driver is going to react like a cat at the one instance the software doesn't recognize something (like a bicyclist swerving at the last second in front of a car).

Amazon has supposedly ordered 10k or 100k electric glider platforms with the expectation now that the operational cost will overall be lower than gas/diesel (not hard to believe given that those things are driven stop and go with lots of traffic - same for garbage trucks, etc.). It isn't an altruistic or charitable thing they're doing testing out platforms in bulk numbers - they bid the gliders at a level where the total vehicle cost would be the same as gas/diesel. Unless they turn out to be horribly unreliable and unfixable (doubtful), they'll make more money with them.

I understand they have a range of something like 100 miles, which keeps the cost down, but if you think about driving 100 miles delivering packages in the suburbs, there's no way they'll ever drive 100 miles in a day.
 
As has been pointed out many times in this thread, simply switching petrol to electric isn't going to work, petrol takes literally a few minutes to put 4-500 miles of range into your vehicle, electricity takes MUCH longer for less range.
I assume you are talking from your own experience?
Because I am.

Thanks for your interest.
 
If it is a motorised form of transport, at least a proficiency test should become law. (That should be for cyclists too)
Road tax and insurance should be compulsory.
All other road user laws should apply.
Same as any car or motorbike.
Is it not discrimination, cyclist over motorists? Soon they will be saying you don't need to have a license if you are lgbt
That's hilarious. I think you've misread something there. What's actually going to happen is that you will be banned from driving or riding any form of mechanical transport, motorized or otherwise, unless you are LGBT, or LBW at the minimum.
 
I just love this thread.....have learned a lot....
as for induction chargeing.....no hope.....some moron will dig it up, thats if a pot hole/sink hole doesn't trash it in weeks.....
the gas board/elec companies and even the phone comp cant work together now after a century of digging up the roads....
what chance have u got with a new kid on the block.....
on the lighter side, D_W, do you have pot holes in the US....the UK road system is like a cocked up Swiss chesse...and with no money of incentive to fix it.....but will happily waste BILLIONS on and uneccesary new rail system....JOBS for the boys and another pocket filler for those in the know.....
Luckily for me I live in a warm sunny place......extra/higher charges to recharge my future EV would be enough for me to go off grid and stick my fingers up to those in power.....but we cant all do it.....
 
I assume you are talking from your own experience?
Because I am.

Thanks for your interest.

Yes, I own a petrol car and I can put 500 miles worth of petrol into in less than 5 minutes. I am assuming you own an EV, can you put 500 miles of range into it in less than 5 minutes?
 
That's hilarious. I think you've misread something there. What's actually going to happen is that you will be banned from driving or riding any form of mechanical transport, motorized or otherwise, unless you are LGBT, or LBW at the minimum.

LBW?
 
Poor areas tend to have less post offices, slower internet, less community facilities in general. A sudden change about to happen? better watch out for pig turds landing on your EV in your driveway.
Agree, its a likely situation, even with incentives and subsidies, you are probably predicting the likely picture. These areas will be less well covered by all these facilities and services. Same with doctors surgeries, quality schools, bus services trains, are similarly affected. It depends on how the national political mood swings in the future.
My know-how is related on what insights from my work on technology, I can see it evolving and investment being made in manufacturing, so I have some feel for the likely cost of technology. For these wider issues, its down to a political consensus, its swung from collectivist/ redistributive to individual atomised during my lifetime, the pendulum may be swinging back with talk of leveling up. I don't know.
 
Perhaps some of you are not old enough to remember the smog that used to hang over London and most other major cities of the world, but we have got cleaner by the decade, unfortunately I don't think electric vehicles are the answer, because we can't support the infrastructure without Nuclear power, I admit I don't know the answer, but it certainly is not wind power, perhaps wave generation needs to be updated, can anyone tell me why the Greens have not jumped on the bandwagon about the wind turbines and the massive resources needed to service, maintain and build them.
 
Perhaps some of you are not old enough to remember the smog that used to hang over London and most other major cities of the world, but we have got cleaner by the decade, unfortunately I don't think electric vehicles are the answer, because we can't support the infrastructure without Nuclear power, I admit I don't know the answer, but it certainly is not wind power, perhaps wave generation needs to be updated, can anyone tell me why the Greens have not jumped on the bandwagon about the wind turbines and the massive resources needed to service, maintain and build them.

Because greens aren't interested in innovation that leads to a higher quality of life and happier, they want regressive action, misery and depopulation, unless you are rich, in which case you can do what you like.
 

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