Electric vehicles

[Woody2Shoes]

Transferring to EV is expensive, both in terms of new infrastructure, but also in terms of energy usage. We will use more energy to travel the same distances, or we will travel less. Either way we will be the poorer for it. Is Climate Change fear just a way of convincing everyone to accept being poorer, because the oil is running out?

I think you need to justify some of these statements. EVs are much more efficient at converting chemically stored energy into movement on the ground. More than half the energy from diesel/petrol is wasted when it is burned in an ICE.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I think you need to justify some of these statements. EVs are much more efficient at converting chemically stored energy into movement on the ground. More than half the energy from diesel/petrol is wasted when it is burned in an ICE.

All technological progress requires change - think of all the saddlemakers and farriers put out of work when horses went out of fashion about a century ago...

 

[Rorschach]

Are you sure, stupidity can be a good guise for both incompetance and corruption. Rail freight has many benefits but reason that a lot of freight uses road transport rather than rail is because the rail infrastructure is no longer there, if we built new rail yards then it would be a simple mater to move containers onto & off rail, but like everything else there would be winners and losers. The haulage industry is huge, Ok the trucks are not made in the Uk but there is a large service industry and overall it employs a lot of people, then another loser would be the government through loss of fuel duty and taxation so whilst they use diesel and generate jobs and income there is no reason to change even if it means helping congestion and the enviroment. This is a good example of why we need fresh younger blood in our leadership, once you get to a certain age you know that you are past making any significant difference and so just go with the flow waiting to retire with the attitude that the next generation will have to sort out the mess left behind and so the cycle continues.

Ok people are stupid but that isn't the reason they don't use rail. Rail is simply not good enough for "just in time" delivery which is how a lot of companies buy there stock, warehousing is expensive. Rail is great for bulk products like clay for example which will go from quarry to factory, but you can't transport food efficiently by train, too much time to load and unload and you need it to go to too many smaller locations.

I know rail sounds great because it is super efficient when used in the right circumstance, but road haulage just works better for the vast majority of goods that need transporting.

 

[chrisdt]

Yes I know you can...with a tow dolly...Loaded on the All lane running hard shoulder if the overhead signs and phones are working which by Highways Englands own admission have not been in some areas. Yes we have a pot hole hot line here in Cumbria and they might eventually come out and repair them...But what a repair??? Fill it with a little tarmac, smooth it over and three months down the line out it pops....Complete waste of time and money.
Talking about wasting money anyone seen the horrendous TV ad Go Left which they say is intended to "Educate Us" in the art of using a Smart Motorway I really believe its Highway England that needs educating.Tell that to the lady in a Ford Focus with 2 kids in the back and the cam belt breaks. Please dont say put your foot on the clutch and cruise to a safety zone which might or might not be a third of a mile or one mile away Is'nt it strange in the ad the safety zone is conveniently just in front of the car. Anyone been driving when a cam belt breaks? I have. It judders to a halt very rapidly giving you no time to think.
The official result:
Given its long list of responsibilities, there are no prizes for guess that timing belt failure is pretty catastrophic. It’s possible to ‘get away’ with it if your car has what’s known as a non-interference engine, by which we mean the innards don’t clatter into each other without a belt.
Sadly though, most modern powerplants are engineered so finely, and to such small tolerances that without a belt, things go very wrong, very fast. The valves will crash into the pistons, which will be moving, so they’ll crush and bend the valves if the valves don’t punch through the piston cap.
This in turn can result in metal being broken off, which will damage the cylinder walls and also the combustion chamber within the cylinder head.
If you’re really unlucky, small fragments of metal could be pulled through to the exhaust, and if you’ve got a turbo, it could chew up said metal and grade the blower, too. Basically, if a timing belt snaps, it’s bad, bad news and you will grind to a halt within yards or even feet.

 

[RobinBHM]

The Queen makes a fortune out of renewables, at least from wind turbines.

Who Owens the sea bed from low tide mark to 12 miles out?
Where do offshore wind turbines go.

 

[Jameshow]

My view on smart motorways is that the hard shoulder should only be used when the traffic is congested enough to be reduced to 40mph speed limit.

I know this limits the capacity of the motorway but in safety terms it's the right thing to do.

Your far more likely to stop with a 40mph speed limit and antt crash your more likely to survive.

Cheers James

 

[RobinBHM]

The problem with smart motorways is they've been built on the cheap, so missing many features that are needed to make them safe.

 

[Ozi]

Yes I know you can...with a tow dolly...Loaded on the All lane running hard shoulder if the overhead signs and phones are working which by Highways Englands own admission have not been in some areas. Yes we have a pot hole hot line here in Cumbria and they might eventually come out and repair them...But what a repair??? Fill it with a little tarmac, smooth it over and three months down the line out it pops....Complete waste of time and money.
Talking about wasting money anyone seen the horrendous TV ad Go Left which they say is intended to "Educate Us" in the art of using a Smart Motorway I really believe its Highway England that needs educating.Tell that to the lady in a Ford Focus with 2 kids in the back and the cam belt breaks. Please dont say put your foot on the clutch and cruise to a safety zone which might or might not be a third of a mile or one mile away Is'nt it strange in the ad the safety zone is conveniently just in front of the car. Anyone been driving when a cam belt breaks? I have. It judders to a halt very rapidly giving you no time to think.
The official result:
Given its long list of responsibilities, there are no prizes for guess that timing belt failure is pretty catastrophic. It’s possible to ‘get away’ with it if your car has what’s known as a non-interference engine, by which we mean the innards don’t clatter into each other without a belt.
Sadly though, most modern powerplants are engineered so finely, and to such small tolerances that without a belt, things go very wrong, very fast. The valves will crash into the pistons, which will be moving, so they’ll crush and bend the valves if the valves don’t punch through the piston cap.
This in turn can result in metal being broken off, which will damage the cylinder walls and also the combustion chamber within the cylinder head.
If you’re really unlucky, small fragments of metal could be pulled through to the exhaust, and if you’ve got a turbo, it could chew up said metal and grade the blower, too. Basically, if a timing belt snaps, it’s bad, bad news and you will grind to a halt within yards or even feet.

One more reason to want a more reliable EV

 

[Ozi]

The problem with smart motorways is they've been built on the cheap, so missing many features that are needed to make them safe.

Agreed. Hopefully collision sensing will become more common particularly for HGVs. Although I can imagine we will see some nasty issues when it reaches 90% usage and people know vehicles will stop if you step in front of them

 

[TominDales]

It is possible to make "petrol" into all sorts of other things. By the same token, a lot of things can be turned into petrol - I know a guy who once worked in South Africa during apartheid, helping them make petrol (which they couldn't easily import!) out of coal which they had loads of. Of course these transformations require quite a lot of extra energy, so probably best avoided. Medium term, less oil will be extracted, not least because it's increasingly scarce/expensive to extract - we found and burned most of the 'low hanging fruit' some time ago, possibly excluding places like Saudi/Iran/Iraq/Libya etc.

That is pretty well spot on what is happening right now.
Methods for making fuel and chemicals from coal and carbon feedstocks, called Fischer Toppsch synthesis (FT) after the inventors ca 1920 Germany and then improved by UK, US, SA and global petrochemical companies. Its offers a way to take bioderived and waste food and plastics into fuels and higher chain chemicals.
FT has a bit of a negative history - it was used by Nazi Germany in WWII to convert coal into chemicals and gasoline in the war. It was used by Sasol to convert coal into chemicals and gasoline during the apartheid sanctions era. But it offers a way to convert 'green' hydrocarbons into aviation fuel, shipping fuel and chemicals of tomorrow.

Fossil derived oil is currently cheap and available (as is shale gas), so regulation is the only way to make the change. The Net Zero carbon initiatives agreed by most governments is leading to investment in new low/zero carbon chemicals routes.
Some oil will be needed to make the petrochemicals society needs it will need to be done in a net zero way and petro-refineries and crackers will be modified to make these materials without making petrol and diesel as byproducts.
Hydrocarbons can be converted (at a cost) into pretty much anything, so recycled plastic can be turned into fuel or back into plastic goods.

EVs make much more economic sense within this petrochemical framework, as net zero carbon fuels are costly whereas wind/solar/nuclear to electricity and EVs (E trains, E HGVs) will use renewable energy more cost effectively, and so a large chunk of todays oil be left in the ground. Even Saudi Aramco the worlds largest producer of oil is developing these new chemistries for a carbon dioxide free future. Putin's Russia is hoping to be the last conventional hydrocarbon supplier, but I suspect technology will come in faster than he realises. That is not to say there wont be small legacy uses of hydrocarbons, but the really big emitters of CO2 will get replaced.

I've spent 35 years in the Chemical sector and this is by far the biggest change in my life-time. The industry has been aware of these issue since the mid 70's but its taken until now for the will and economics to make sense. Many chemical companies developed various low or net zero carbon plastics in the 1980's but there was very low public appetite to adapt to using them or pay the extra price vs fossil equivalents, so the initiatives died a death at that time. This time round all the ducks seem to be in orders for the change to happen.

 

[Droogs]

Ok people are stupid but that isn't the reason they don't use rail. Rail is simply not good enough for "just in time" delivery which is how a lot of companies buy there stock, warehousing is expensive. Rail is great for bulk products like clay for example which will go from quarry to factory, but you can't transport food efficiently by train, too much time to load and unload and you need it to go to too many smaller locations.

I know rail sounds great because it is super efficient when used in the right circumstance, but road haulage just works better for the vast majority of goods that need transporting.

For once we do agree. To paraphrase General der Infantrei General Feld marshall Erich von Ludendorff 1st Quartermaster General of the Imperial German Army "The Great War, was a battle between German railways and French trucks. The trucks won."

 

[Droogs]

Here is some more info on the new Kia EV6 and guess what it can to 1.5 tonne

 

[Lons]

I'd hate to think what towing a caravan does to the real range of the car and of course the manufacturers won't tell you that. As well as weight and wind resistance caravans depend on the towing vehicle for lights and running a fridge on 12v and you aren't supposed to run on gas whilst towing, also modern tow systems often rely on electrical safety systems which all draw current, not an issue with ICE as the battery is being charged whilst driving.
Caravaners usually cover a fair distance to get to their first destination, (I had a caravan for many years and worked for one of the largest manufacturers for a few years as well), before switching to a motorhome and would be more than a little surprised if it didn't impact on EVs in a similar way it does to ICE.

The launch model of the Kia starts at a base £41000 so not chicken feed and because it's over the new £35000 ceiling it doesn't qualify for the now reduced gov subsidy of £2500 either.

Not a bad looking car though I think I'll wait until the new Audi E-tron GT halves in price.

 

[chrisdt]

I love them all..Especially when the tin boxes are parked on the pavement and my daughter squeezes through with her baby buggy and makes a pretty wavy line all down the side

 

[Rorschach]

I'd hate to think what towing a caravan does to the real range of the car and of course the manufacturers won't tell you that. As well as weight and wind resistance caravans depend on the towing vehicle for lights and running a fridge on 12v and you aren't supposed to run on gas whilst towing, also modern tow systems often rely on electrical safety systems which all draw current, not an issue with ICE as the battery is being charged whilst driving.
Caravaners usually cover a fair distance to get to their first destination, (I had a caravan for many years and worked for one of the largest manufacturers for a few years as well), before switching to a motorhome and would be more than a little surprised if it didn't impact on EVs in a similar way it does to ICE.

The launch model of the Kia starts at a base £41000 so not chicken feed and because it's over the new £35000 ceiling it doesn't qualify for the now reduced gov subsidy of £2500 either.

Not a bad looking car though I think I'll wait until the new Audi E-tron GT halves in price.

I am sure I heard Andrew Ditton say you only get about 1/3rd of the range when towing. So even on the most powerful EV's at the moment that is a non-starter for towing a caravan, you would be lucky to do 200 miles in day I think.

 

[Lons]

I am sure I heard Andrew Ditton say you only get about 1/3rd of the range when towing. So even on the most powerful EV's at the moment that is a non-starter for towing a caravan, you would be lucky to do 200 miles in day I think.

Not as simple as that.
When towing with a normal ICE and while torque comes into the equation which EVs have plenty of but with an ICE the heavier and more powerful the towcar is the less it will suffer when towing, depends on many other things a high reving, high geared sports car will suffer more than a gutsy SUV for example both in engine performance and wind drag.
As an example a previous Audi A6 avant with 2 litre deisel engine would return me around 40+ solo which dropped to high 20s when towing using 8 spd auto all the time, my current SUV with about 20bhp more and 9 speed auto has similar solo but low 30s towing the same caravan. Less gear changes and higher tow vehicle are the main reasons.

Either way an EV, at the current stage of development should be viewed with caution as a potential towcar.

 

[Lons]

I love them all..Especially when the tin boxes are parked on the pavement and my daughter squeezes through with her baby buggy and makes a pretty wavy line all down the side

I guess she'll have the pushchair out this weekend then as The Lakes are sure to be jam packed.
I'd be seriously annoyed if someone did that to my M/H but then I certainly would be inconsiderate enough to park on a footpath in the first place. Not all caravaners and m/h owners are like that.
There are idiots of all types of road users, I was in Newcastle this afternoon and a di**head cyclist shot across a roundabout in front of me when I had clear right of way, only avoiding action stopped th fool being knocked off his bike. I admit I did say "oh deary me, what a silly Billy" a couple of times.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Basic physics would suggest a reduction of 35-50% in mpg - crudely energy is consumed (EV or ICE) to make progress:

• Weight - towing a caravan weighing ~ 1 ton with a car weighing 1.5 tons adds 67% to the weight "package"
• Aerodynamics - the frontal area of a caravan is around 36 sq ft compared to a typical medium hatch of ~ 22 sq ft. The shape has more in common with a brick than an arrow!
• Caravanners may drive more slowly than unencumbered vehicles!

Figures for individual vehicles and caravans may differ.

 

[Spectric]

When looking at Nuclear as a power source you have to look at the whole picture, not just the nice parts to get the true cost. To initially just build the cost are astronomic, just look at Hinkley C, quote.

"The group, which is financing the construction of the plant along with its junior partner CGN of China, said it expected the project in Somerset to cost up to £23bn compared with a 2019 estimate of a maximum of £22.5bn "

Then the runing cost , a high maintenance cost due to license compliance, site security and then decomisioning and of course the long term storage of spent fuel so it no longer paints such a rosy picture. Then what about what you cannot put a value on, people having to live with a potential like Fukushima on their doorstep so in reality it is like asbestos, a great idea at the time but should no longer be considered.

 

[chrisdt]

I guess she'll have the pushchair out this weekend then as The Lakes are sure to be jam packed.
I'd be seriously annoyed if someone did that to my M/H but then I certainly would be inconsiderate enough to park on a footpath in the first place. Not all caravaners and m/h owners are like that.
There are idiots of all types of road users, I was in Newcastle this afternoon and a di**head cyclist shot across a roundabout in front of me when I had clear right of way, only avoiding action stopped th fool being knocked off his bike. I admit I did say "oh deary me, what a silly Billy" a couple of times.

No, not everyone is as inconsiderate as to park on the pavement but seems to be in ever increasing numbers. Not so bad if the pavements are wide but they tend to be narrow here in the Lakes so if its a choice of squeezing through a gap and marking someones "Pride and joy" or going into the road then I would recommend the former every time.
Yes the crag rats (local terminology) will be arriving at Keswick and Kendal at the weekend and then leaving all their rubbish behind. Nevertheless I will still get some consolation watching 5 miles of tailbacks on the M6 "Smart Motorway" as they leave and then sitting in my back garden drinking a beer and watching the sun go down over the fells.