Electric vehicles

[MusicMan]

I've put this here because although its not immediately about EV's its about the cause of driving so far so often.

I drive typically 18,000 miles a year. I have a salesman who often exceeds 25,000 and so EV's are a bit unrealistic for my business. BUT....

I have spent the past 2 weeks calling and talking to my customers. Reminding them of the coming Armageddon and suggesting we do something different to give them support. That is we create a cloud based app which will permit us to connect to their systems via a highly secure interface. Thus we sit in our office doodling on our keyboards instead of travelling by car. A sort of NOC for AI software for those of you familar with NOCs.

I was encouraged by the responses. Of our 100 highest spending customers 47 have said yes, 14 have said maybe and 39 have not made a decision. The app is minimal, the time and mileage saved could be of the order of 6 man years mileage could be around 120,000 ++ miles a year. Coronavirus Covid-19 has perhaps been the impetus to consider new things just to keep their business up and running as the expected 4 to 6 million people in the UK are infected..

Software already exists to legitimately penetrate and take over access to their systems and adding 256 bit security to that does not seem difficult. Most of the complexity seems to be in forming and config of the networking bits.

So prior to any purchase of short range EV cars I may have a partial way out of my dilemma about how to disperse the company/or not. I will of course also delay decisions about purchase of EV vehicles until we have 12 months operations under my belt.

We'll see how this goes.

Very relevant, and excellent leadership, Beech, and you'll save a huge amount of emissions, too. Let us know how it goes!

The national organisation for whom I do a lot of committee work is closing its London office tomorrow and switching entirely to home and online working, including video conferencing with anything up to 30 participants (probably using Zoom), instead of gathering people from all over the country and abroad. When they see how much they save, I should not be surprised if this becomes permanent.

 

[AES]

VERY interesting beech and MM. I for one will be pleased to see how it goes after, say, the 1st year. Thanks for posting.

 

[Lons]

Excellent if it's possible to do it, hope it works well.

t An example of he other side of the coin is a close friend who is a self employed engineering trainer, all his forward scheduled bookings have now been cancelled so no income from now on.

 

[MusicMan]

Had an unexpected conflation of the threads I am following most: this one and the coronavirus thread. As you know, I've recently got a Nissan Leaf and am very pleased with the limited use I've been able to make of it so far. Done one rapid charge, on the Instavolt network, and that was dead simple and fast. All the longer trips are now cancelled or postponed thanks to the virus.

I am planning to do mostly home charging, and have ordered a smart meter (Octopus) and EO charger, which will enable me to program use of my solar panels when appropriate, and will let me use Octopus Agile which charges electricity on 30 minute slots through the day. Basically, it's cheap most of the time (below 10p/unit) very cheap in the small hours of the morning (3p - 6p) and expensive between 4 pm and 7 pm (about 25p). So the first engineer came to fit the smart meter on Monday last week, and couldn't because he could not get the (ancient - 1960s build) main fuse out, it was stuck fast. So Western Power (the only ones who can do main fuse work in my area) were booked for their first date, at the end of March, before Octopus can fit an isolator and smart meter, and then EO can be booked to fit the charger.

On Friday Western Power ring up to say that because of the coronavirus they are cancelling all installations nationwide and have no idea when they can resume!

I understand this of course. And in fact the Leaf charges perfectly well on a long overnight charge from a 13A plug and, to my surprise, the plug doesn't overheat at all.

And the current 100% charge will probably last me the whole 12 weeks of confined-to-barracks that is about to start!

 

[beech1948]

VERY interesting beech and MM. I for one will be pleased to see how it goes after, say, the 1st year. Thanks for posting.

I'm almost reluctant to add this truth but after reading some of your comments about what I'm trying to do I need to add this in the spirit of honesty: here goes.

If I can save 120,000 ++ miles per year, convert many of our service calls into video conferences and postpone the purchase of a minimum of 12 £80k Teslas ( overall around £1.3 million) there is considerable extra profit potential to be had. That's not just my only motivation of course but it makes the struggle easier. There's about £5 million available to save if the changes can be made to work as well as a major reduction in greenhouse gases.

We are still a small size company compared to say Fujitsu but we have a large and very dispersed client base hence the need to travel.

I have started to try out video conferencing with up to say 15 people present. The core issue is scale of video conferencing software, client acceptance and their need/desire to see one of our staff on site. Its not going to be easy though to get all clients onto a new scheme for support. As you might have guessed our Government clients are the slowest and most reluctant.

I have to smile though as it was my irritation with all this talk about EVs with what I think are overly short ranges which got the old blood pumping. My training is to remove and eradicate whatever is unproductive first, then reduce and then to make efficient ( faster) and then to make effective so thats what I am doing.

Just been to have a look to see what a Nissan Leaf can do for my wife who does about 6000 miles a year in short local hops. We will see.
Al

 

[Trainee neophyte]

VERY interesting beech and MM. I for one will be pleased to see how it goes after, say, the 1st year. Thanks for posting.

I'm almost reluctant to add this truth but after reading some of your comments about what I'm trying to do I need to add this in the spirit of honesty: here goes.

If I can save 120,000 ++ miles per year, convert many of our service calls into video conferences and postpone the purchase of a minimum of 12 £80k Teslas ( overall around £1.3 million) there is considerable extra profit potential to be had. That's not just my only motivation of course but it makes the struggle easier. There's about £5 million available to save if the changes can be made to work as well as a major reduction in greenhouse gases.

We are still a small size company compared to say Fujitsu but we have a large and very dispersed client base hence the need to travel.

I have started to try out video conferencing with up to say 15 people present. The core issue is scale of video conferencing software, client acceptance and their need/desire to see one of our staff on site. Its not going to be easy though to get all clients onto a new scheme for support. As you might have guessed our Government clients are the slowest and most reluctant.

I have to smile though as it was my irritation with all this talk about EVs with what I think are overly short ranges which got the old blood pumping. My training is to remove and eradicate whatever is unproductive first, then reduce and then to make efficient ( faster) and then to make effective so thats what I am doing.

Just been to have a look to see what a Nissan Leaf can do for my wife who does about 6000 miles a year in short local hops. We will see.
Al

The video posted very early on in this thread had chappie stating that it would be the fleet managers who would make the move to electric first, purely for cost reasons. Could you be an early(est) adopter of this strategy?

Many moons ago I worked for an IT company based in Cornwall, but with a national clientele. The telephone support, management and programming were all done in Cornwall, and because wages are low, it makes good economic sense, but the on-site engineers had mad itineraries; away all week, and often in the north of England, but having to return to base each week. The number of miles driven must have been insane. The first b&b to install a fast charger will have a jump on all the competition.

 

[beech1948]

VERY interesting beech and MM. I for one will be pleased to see how it goes after, say, the 1st year. Thanks for posting.

I'm almost reluctant to add this truth but after reading some of your comments about what I'm trying to do I need to add this in the spirit of honesty: here goes.

If I can save 120,000 ++ miles per year, convert many of our service calls into video conferences and postpone the purchase of a minimum of 12 £80k Teslas ( overall around £1.3 million) there is considerable extra profit potential to be had. That's not just my only motivation of course but it makes the struggle easier. There's about £5 million available to save if the changes can be made to work as well as a major reduction in greenhouse gases.

We are still a small size company compared to say Fujitsu but we have a large and very dispersed client base hence the need to travel.

I have started to try out video conferencing with up to say 15 people present. The core issue is scale of video conferencing software, client acceptance and their need/desire to see one of our staff on site. Its not going to be easy though to get all clients onto a new scheme for support. As you might have guessed our Government clients are the slowest and most reluctant.

I have to smile though as it was my irritation with all this talk about EVs with what I think are overly short ranges which got the old blood pumping. My training is to remove and eradicate whatever is unproductive first, then reduce and then to make efficient ( faster) and then to make effective so thats what I am doing.

Just been to have a look to see what a Nissan Leaf can do for my wife who does about 6000 miles a year in short local hops. We will see.
Al

The video posted very early on in this thread had chappie stating that it would be the fleet managers who would make the move to electric first, purely for cost reasons. Could you be an early(est) adopter of this strategy?

Many moons ago I worked for an IT company based in Cornwall, but with a national clientele. The telephone support, management and programming were all done in Cornwall, and because wages are low, it makes good economic sense, but the on-site engineers had mad itineraries; away all week, and often in the north of England, but having to return to base each week. The number of miles driven must have been insane. The first b&b to install a fast charger will have a jump on all the competition.

I don't have a fleet manager were are too small at only 58 employees. I get to add this skill to my many other hats as the owner of the biz. Looking back over the last month's thought processes I am motivated by making more profit, investing that to grow the company and EV life is a very low third place at the moment.

I have decided that we need a NOC style view. Over a network linked initially to critical customers.
I have decided to try out video conferencing across the 50 most critical customers
I have decided that at present NO electric vehicle can meet or replace our ICE vehicles wait 2 yrs
I have decided to keep the company centralised for next 2 yrs

What's become interesting is that our own AI software has just been fed this set of problems and we need to add more data but it will be a learning experience to see what it comes up with as we do our 2yr plan from April 2020 to April 2022.

I said in a message a few days ago about a client which is so hugely profitable that they do not invest in their staff training and rely on us travelling to compensate. Such poor management is rife across the UK and will become a major issue soon if say 60% of working age people are infected with Covid-19.
Al

 

[Terry - Somerset]

60% is apparently the point at which herd immunity kicks in. This does not mean the virus will cease to exist, just that it is unlikely to be passed on to more than one person and ultimately it becomes low level.

Making a few assumption:

- 60% are infected before transmission declines to a much lower level
- 50% are infected during the peak period
- the peak infection period is 10 weeks
- anyone infected needs 2 weeks off work - 1 feeling rubbish and 1 recovery

This means that averagely during the peak period 10% will be off due to the virus (50% / 10 weeks x 2 weeks = 10%). This could be an underestimate due to self isolation, and family isolation - the number off work at any one time could be higher - up to (say) 20% of the working population.

It may be much less than this if mitigation and suppression policies work - work from home, better testing, social distancing etc. If it works too well it may be that when controls are relaxed it simply reappears.

 

[MusicMan]

So glad I irritated you, Beech, it seems to have been very productive! I totally understand you not wanting to buy EVs in bulk as yet and I think you will see far more choice and range in 2 years time. That's why I only took a 2 year lease (as well as the mantra, if it appreciates: buy it, if it depreciates: lease it). Mind, once your wife gets one the pressure may become unstoppable. The Leaf does sound perfect for her.

I've been reviewing video conferencing software for other purposes and the general consensus seems to be that Zoom is well ahead of the pack. They have focused on video quality, connectivity and usability and it shows - much better than Skype. I had a session yesterday with an experienced friend in New Mexico, and it was easy to set up even a tricky combination: video on external large screen off a Macbook, audio through my iPhone direct to my made-for-iphone hearing aids. Worked very well. The guy I was working with frequently uses it similar mode to you. He's a senior executive in a sizable medical insurance company in the States and works with employees and representatives spread over several thousand miles. You can use it in full conference mode, or in webinar mode where the host is presenting to a lot of attendees, and they can ask questions afterwards. Not too expensive either.

Apologies if you know all this!

Cheers

Keith

 

[MusicMan]

Just heard that the OLEV brant for installing a home charger is being cut (again) by £150, and I can't get the higher one despite it being on order as this is in effect from April 1, and key installers aren't working because of the virus. Government's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, again. Oh well.

 

[beech1948]

So glad I irritated you, Beech, it seems to have been very productive! I totally understand you not wanting to buy EVs in bulk as yet and I think you will see far more choice and range in 2 years time. That's why I only took a 2 year lease (as well as the mantra, if it appreciates: buy it, if it depreciates: lease it). Mind, once your wife gets one the pressure may become unstoppable. The Leaf does sound perfect for her.

I've been reviewing video conferencing software for other purposes and the general consensus seems to be that Zoom is well ahead of the pack. They have focused on video quality, connectivity and usability and it shows - much better than Skype. I had a session yesterday with an experienced friend in New Mexico, and it was easy to set up even a tricky combination: video on external large screen off a Macbook, audio through my iPhone direct to my made-for-iphone hearing aids. Worked very well. The guy I was working with frequently uses it similar mode to you. He's a senior executive in a sizable medical insurance company in the States and works with employees and representatives spread over several thousand miles. You can use it in full conference mode, or in webinar mode where the host is presenting to a lot of attendees, and they can ask questions afterwards. Not too expensive either.

Apologies if you know all this!

Cheers

Keith

Sorry to tell you this but it was'nt particularly you but rather the rest of the fairly preachy mob. EVs are not for me yet. Tesla are probably the best bet but still need too much time to charge and the range is too low.

You stated that in 2 yrs the problem will be sorted. I do not believe that and expect it to take a least 10 yrs due to the need for revised battery chemistry to get the energy density of each battery increased.

Tesla cars have several other major issues as well. Not easy to repair, very expensive repairs, battery replacement costs, unreliability and of course the under developed auto driving software. Its not all chocolates and roses in EV land.

 

[MusicMan]

Oh, I must up my preachy game! No, I didn't say sorted, but much better with more choice and more range.I'd guess that the 'regular' Leafs, Kira etc then will compare with the Teslas now, but that will still not be enough for some users. But more than there are now. I agree that more years development are needed (and are happening).

 

[beech1948]

I'm afraid that my personality is interested in NEW things and ideas. Old stuff like current EV's is fairly mundane to me. Thats why I work at AI and use woodwork to stress relieve.

I have been trying to decipher a likely path for development of batteries. I have tracked 4 US companies, 1 UK company 3 Chinese and 2 Japanese companies working in advanced battery tech.

1) Same old same old stuff from Nissan, Honda, Renault etc with only likely change to be an increase in Kw hours per car. A form of rationing by car model where the builder gets to say for this much cash you only get this much battery. The next 7 years will be like that. So your leaf will go from 80/120 miles range to maybe 160 miles range but at very high cost.

2) More research into hydrogen battery types but will peter out in 5 yrs ish. The infrastructure is simply too difficult.

3) Solid state batteries will be heavily researched for about 8-9 yrs and come on song at about 10 yrs and could provide x2 on range and possibly x3. It is likely that solid state batteries will become the norm. Current solid state batteries yield a much faster charging regime, much higher energy density per battery and could be linked together to give lighter weight more powerful batteries. They also would needed to make charging without a cable a reality.

4) A possible outcome will be a revolt by the buying public against to many proprietary battery types and just a few standardised batteries available. Just like the current 3 or 4 plug types will need to be reduced as they will become vulnerable to government intervention to standardise. Kind of makes current battery proprietry standard obselete.

The point at which current research indicates a break through above a range of 450 miles with a 30 minute full recharge looks to be about 10 years away maybe even slightly more.

I'm getting old ( 72) and will see it but not take part in the changeover from ICE to proper EV. I don't expect to retire until I'm 80 as my brain is still sharp, my body is old but in good nick and my spirit is still contentious.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I'm afraid that my personality is interested in NEW things and ideas. Old stuff like current EV's is fairly mundane to me. Thats why I work at AI and use woodwork to stress relieve.

I have been trying to decipher a likely path for development of batteries. I have tracked 4 US companies, 1 UK company 3 Chinese and 2 Japanese companies working in advanced battery tech.

1) Same old same old stuff from Nissan, Honda, Renault etc with only likely change to be an increase in Kw hours per car. A form of rationing by car model where the builder gets to say for this much cash you only get this much battery. The next 7 years will be like that. So your leaf will go from 80/120 miles range to maybe 160 miles range but at very high cost.

2) More research into hydrogen battery types but will peter out in 5 yrs ish. The infrastructure is simply too difficult.

3) Solid state batteries will be heavily researched for about 8-9 yrs and come on song at about 10 yrs and could provide x2 on range and possibly x3. It is likely that solid state batteries will become the norm. Current solid state batteries yield a much faster charging regime, much higher energy density per battery and could be linked together to give lighter weight more powerful batteries. They also would needed to make charging without a cable a reality.

4) A possible outcome will be a revolt by the buying public against to many proprietary battery types and just a few standardised batteries available. Just like the current 3 or 4 plug types will need to be reduced as they will become vulnerable to government intervention to standardise. Kind of makes current battery proprietry standard obselete.

The point at which current research indicates a break through above a range of 450 miles with a 30 minute full recharge looks to be about 10 years away maybe even slightly more.

I'm getting old ( 72) and will see it but not take part in the changeover from ICE to proper EV. I don't expect to retire until I'm 80 as my brain is still sharp, my body is old but in good nick and my spirit is still contentious.

I'm interested to know why you think that ss batteries are a prerequisite for wireless charging?

 

[beech1948]

Not a prerequisite but the wireless charging times for SS are much lower in the lab than current battery types. Thats important for business because for example a 3 day trip from Crowthorne to Lancaster to Glasgow and back via Shrewsbury would become a 4 day trip at a minimum using current short range batteries eg A Nissan Leaf will only do about 100 miles and need about 1 hour to recharge to 80%. Journey would be about 1400 miles so 14 recharge occurrences of about an hour each.

A Hyundai Kona does about 220 miles per charge so minimum 6 charging sessions of 1 hour to 80% charge. Either way you look at it the working time is extended by about a day or 1.5 days.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Not a prerequisite but the wireless charging times for SS are much lower in the lab than current battery types. Thats important for business because for example a 3 day trip from Crowthorne to Lancaster to Glasgow and back via Shrewsbury would become a 4 day trip at a minimum using current short range batteries eg A Nissan Leaf will only do about 100 miles and need about 1 hour to recharge to 80%. Journey would be about 1400 miles so 14 recharge occurrences of about an hour each.

A Hyundai Kona does about 220 miles per charge so minimum 6 charging sessions of 1 hour to 80% charge. Either way you look at it the working time is extended by about a day or 1.5 days.

Is a business where one is paying (presumably well paid) staff so much to drive around the country the norm and/or the best way of doing business?
I suspect that one positive to come out this nasty covid mess will be the realisation that "in person" is less necessary than we currently assume.
Certainly the firehoses of internet traffic are being reconfigured already.

 

[Droogs]

As most of us are really nosey about how stuff works etc, hers is a bit of viewing while trying to plow through our house arrest.

A very good vid on the gubbins of a Chevy Bolt motor/transaxle unit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APhRPSdmdmk

 

[beech1948]

Woody2shoes wrote

<<<Is a business where one is paying (presumably well paid) staff so much to drive around the country the norm and/or the best way of doing business?>>>

YES. Absolutely. This question is asked and answered frequently by every business in the land.

Because there is currently little alternative. Planes, trains and buses are too slow, to indirect and often have door-to-door times not too different from car use. Public service travel is poor and frequently unreliable.

<<<I suspect that one positive to come out this nasty covid mess will be the realisation that "in person" is less necessary than we currently assume.>>>

I assume nothing. We travel because clients ASK/DEMAND that we do not because we choose to go out on a jolly. I am spending £1.4 million + £50k per network hook-up to change that in the 2020/21 tax year. I will try to see if clients will accept temporary or even permanent network hook-ups so we can get an error report from a client and get to work on it within an hour and effect a fix over the network. If we succeed then it looks like we will need to employ another 4 people to help manage that ( cost 4xhigh salary+tax+NI+floor space costs) with only a few savings from existing staff. One of my staff will need to learn how to run and manage a very high tech service call centre and I'm finding there are not too many of those around.

I'm doing my bit what are you doing for your business.

<<<Certainly the firehoses of internet traffic are being reconfigured already.>>>
What ? By whom, for whom, to where. I'm uncertain if you understand. If you mean the shift to home working due to Covid-19 then not really as most places of employment will expect you to return after the Armageddon. That is client driven and not able to be controlled by me or my business and that is where you need to aim your wish for less travel.

Don't forget that we only travel because a client ASKs/DEMANDS we do ...not for our own jollies.

 

[Bodgers]

Just heard that the OLEV brant for installing a home charger is being cut (again) by £150, and I can't get the higher one despite it being on order as this is in effect from April 1, and key installers aren't working because of the virus. Government's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, again. Oh well.

McNally EV that installed my charger were at our house yesterday, they are still working. That was through Podpoint.

The day before arrival they ring you and ask you to confirm if you are anyone in the house has symptoms or a diagnosis.

 

[AES]

Completely different to beech's business, but when I was working I lost count of the number of times customers and potential customers said "thanks for coming to see me/us".

In some cases it was unavoidable (I had to go and physically look at their aeroplane and paperwork), in other cases not so.

Unsurprisingly, the most grateful for a personal visit were those "far off the beaten track".

But I stress, completely different business to Al's.