Electric vehicles

[Sachakins]

Not about total consumption, it's about peak loads and the huge shifts in consumption patterns. Having a small EV as a second car and an interest in data, the car's consumption is off the charts compared to all else, despite working from home, a large garden office/gym and an increasing predilection for large woodworking machinery. The only thing that uses nearly as much power as charging the car is charging the storage - which is another shift in consumption times.

That's why, were people can, home charging costs are set to incentives that steer people to overnight charging, thus not impacting grid peak loading.

 

[Spectric]

That's why, were people can, home charging costs are set to incentives that steer people to overnight charging, thus not impacting grid peak loading.

That will work whilst most people are still using ICE vehicles but once / if the EV becomes the majority of users then a lot will change. The cost will go up because the chancellor will have a loss of revenue from duty on petrol / diesel so will be looking to get this back not to mention the loss of tax from the people now unemployed in the oil and gas industry as well as automotive. Can the grid cope, If thousands of people plug in their EV as the cheap rate kicks in the loading on the grid will be huge, much higher than when thousands turn on their 3kW kettles during a break in a Tv program and for a longer duration so the current strategy of using the welsh hydro plant to meet the dip will not work. We are still trying to run before we can walk, the step change from ICE to EV is just to much and a middle phase of hybrid is needed to allow people time to get used to the change.

 

[woodieallen]

That will work whilst most people are still using ICE vehicles but once / if the EV becomes the majority of users then a lot will change. The cost will go up because the chancellor will have a loss of revenue from duty on petrol / diesel so will be looking to get this back not to mention the loss of tax from the people now unemployed in the oil and gas industry as well as automotive. Can the grid cope, If thousands of people plug in their EV as the cheap rate kicks in the loading on the grid will be huge, much higher than when thousands turn on their 3kW kettles during a break in a Tv program and for a longer duration so the current strategy of using the welsh hydro plant to meet the dip will not work. We are still trying to run before we can walk, the step change from ICE to EV is just to much and a middle phase of hybrid is needed to allow people time to get used to the change.

They could stagger the start time for the cheap rate.

 

[selectortone]

MG to launch first electric car with solid-state battery in 2025

"IM's 'Lightyear' battery is claimed to offer more than double the energy density – at 368 watts per kilogram – compared with its existing lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) battery. With a capacity of 133kWh, it provides the L6 saloon with an official range of 673 miles on China's Light-Duty Vehicle Test Cycle (CLTC).

IM Motor says the Lightyear battery is also able to provide its latest model with up to 249 miles of range in 12 minutes on a high-powered DC charger."

 

[John Brown]

To infinity and beyond!

 

[selectortone]

To infinity and beyond!

Well, it's got me buzzing!

 

[Sachakins]

They could stagger the start time for the cheap rate.

Also the various suppliers could schedule non overlapping periods between them too.

 

[selectortone]

Wind and solar farms power Great Britain’s grid to greenest ever summer

"Analysis of energy generation data, commissioned by the Guardian, revealed that Britain’s reliance on fossil fuels fell in August to less than one-fifth of all electricity, or 4 terawatt hours (TWh), its lowest ever level for a one-month period.

This allowed the carbon intensity of the power grid to plummet to the lowest level recorded for a single month, at 144g of CO2 per kilowatt-hour in August, 40% lower than in the same month last year, according to the analysis."

Yes, I know the sun shines more in the summer. But this has to be good news for those of us who think that non-fossil fuel energy generation is a good thing. Not to mention energy security.

 

[Geoff_S]

As more and more EVs charge overnight, the cheap rate will gradually disappear

 

[Sachakins]

As more and more EVs charge overnight, the cheap rate will gradually disappear

You could also use the corollary, that as EV use rises and ICE declines the price of petrol and diesel will rise!

 

[Geoff_S]

You could also use the corollary, that as EV use rises and ICE declines the price of petrol and diesel will rise!

Well, I could, but that’s not the point I was making.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That will work whilst most people are still using ICE vehicles but once / if the EV becomes the majority of users then a lot will change. The cost will go up because the chancellor will have a loss of revenue from duty on petrol / diesel so will be looking to get this back not to mention the loss of tax from the people now unemployed in the oil and gas industry as well as automotive. Can the grid cope, If thousands of people plug in their EV as the cheap rate kicks in the loading on the grid will be huge, much higher than when thousands turn on their 3kW kettles during a break in a Tv program and for a longer duration so the current strategy of using the welsh hydro plant to meet the dip will not work. We are still trying to run before we can walk, the step change from ICE to EV is just to much and a middle phase of hybrid is needed to allow people time to get used to the change.

Current daytime demand is ~35GW falling to ~20GW overnight. The figures will be slightly different during winter - although a clear day/night differential will likely exist. As the number of EVs increase, the day/night demand differential will fall and prices start to equalise.

Assuming I have done the basic sums correctly:

• domestically EVs are charged at an average of 5KW,
• thus each GW of spare capacity will allow 200,000 EVs to be charged simultaneously
• assuming spare capacity of (say) 5GW allows 1m EVs to be charged at any one time
• EVs doing an average mileage averagely need charging ~every 4 days
• thus spare capacity of 5GW could support an EV population of 4m
• currently there are ~1m EVs registered
• by 2030 the target is that 80% (~1.6m) of new vehicles sold will be EV
• estimated that 4m EVs registered will probably be achieved in 4-5 years - 2028/29

Personal guess - significantly cheaper overnight rates will be available for at least the next 4 years and then slowly eroded until by (say) 2033/4 there will be little difference.

There are a few provisos:

• a spike of 1m+ EVs all connecting to the grid as a spike needs management
• some EVs won't access cheap rate charging - reliant on public/work charging networks
• speed of wind turbine roll out which principally drive surplus night time generation

 

[Sachakins]

EV FUEL DUTY CHARGING, what's the way forward?

I do think the argument over tax revenue from vehicles dropping will eventually lead to a new tax model to be introduced sooner, rather than later, to recover the levels of tax currently raised.
This could be the simplistic pay per mile model proposed for to replace vehicle excise duty (Road tax!)
Plus forcing energy companies to distinguish between home power usage and vehicle charge usage. Then the government could put levy on that part only. Can be done using current car/charger integration technology.
Also easy to bypass at home by using the slower 13a plug into socket method.

I foresee the more simplistic view of pay per mile, with EV having to pay more per mile, if they keep the duty on fuel for ICE.

The simplest approach for government, would be to scrap road tax, scrap fuel excise duty and load it all on to pay per mile charge. Shows no favouritism to any vehicle and screws all drivers all the time!

The uproar would be deafening, as first argument would be, the heavy vehicles cause more damage etc.

So this is when the government would start to make it complicated, with different rates for different vehicles, say use kerb weight. BUT that loads it against EVs and benefits those that can buy expensive but lightweight sports cars etc
Another simplistic argument implementation is to have one pence per mile per wheel rate.
So imagine it as 1p pw p mile, Motorbike 2ppm Trike 3ppm, car 4ppm lorry 6ppm artic 18ppm.etc.

There are going to be so many arguments for and against any model to use pay per mile, but I believe that it will be the way that government will eventually go.

So until we achieve the Utopia/Dystopia of zero car ownership some here want to see I this forum, we are going to have to find an interim solution and at the moment it looks like pay per mile may will be the way, initially just to replace vehicle excise duty, followed by it being raised to include lost fuel excise duty.

 

[Sachakins]

OK, I will stick my head over the parapet for this next one, and for full disclosure I do own an EV and home charger and no ICE car, so here goes nothing.

I do not believe it is the governments responsibility to build a charging infrastructure, that should be a business enterprise. The goverment however, should be ensuring that the nations national energy supply strategy is fit for purpose and secure.

Maybe the National Energy supply grid should be under sole state ownership and the government the only stakeholder and provider to the retail energy providers

 

[Terry - Somerset]

EV FUEL DUTY CHARGING, what's the way forward?

I do think the argument over tax revenue from vehicles dropping will eventually lead to a new tax model to be introduced sooner, rather than later, to recover the levels of tax currently raised.
This could be the simplistic pay per mile model proposed for to replace vehicle excise duty (Road tax!)
Plus forcing energy companies to distinguish between home power usage and vehicle charge usage. Then the government could put levy on that part only. Can be done using current car/charger integration technology.
Also easy to bypass at home by using the slower 13a plug into socket method.

I foresee the more simplistic view of pay per mile, with EV having to pay more per mile, if they keep the duty on fuel for ICE.

The simplest approach for government, would be to scrap road tax, scrap fuel excise duty and load it all on to pay per mile charge. Shows no favouritism to any vehicle and screws all drivers all the time!

The uproar would be deafening, as first argument would be, the heavy vehicles cause more damage etc.

So this is when the government would start to make it complicated, with different rates for different vehicles, say use kerb weight. BUT that loads it against EVs and benefits those that can buy expensive but lightweight sports cars etc
Another simplistic argument implementation is to have one pence per mile per wheel rate.
So imagine it as 1p pw p mile, Motorbike 2ppm Trike 3ppm, car 4ppm lorry 6ppm artic 18ppm.etc.

There are going to be so many arguments for and against any model to use pay per mile, but I believe that it will be the way that government will eventually go.

So until we achieve the Utopia/Dystopia of zero car ownership some here want to see I this forum, we are going to have to find an interim solution and at the moment it looks like pay per mile may will be the way, initially just to replace vehicle excise duty, followed by it being raised to include lost fuel excise duty.

The method to replace the fuel duty revenues lost through EV need to be simple - easy to implement and operate. Taxation has another role - even were there is no logic to differentiate ICE from EV for road taxes, it may serve to encourage EV uptake to have different rates.

As no proposals are yet forthcoming I suspect we need to look forward 2-5 years at which time the bulk of cars on the road will still be ICE, with some EV sold before tax on EV was an issue.

Vehicle excise duty allows government to track vehicle ownership - if only to allow fines to be issued. A fixed charge/tax associated with vehicle ownership seems unremarkable. The only issue is whether to harmonise the fixed charge across ICE and EV.

Leaving ICE with fuel duties is simple and over time revenues will decline. There is no need for investment (eg: further technology). Owners will have no reason to protest.

The way in which EVs are charged (home, cheap rate, solar panels, standard rate, various public charging rates) makes taxing battery charging very complex.

There may be some merit in harmonising VAT on public charging points vs domestic - although with public charging the cost is payment for both the electricity and the charger, access roads, parking space, payment method, etc.

The remaining option is charging for road use. The most complete method would be to embed technology in the car software to automatically generate routes and charges. However the existing EV fleet would not be so equipped.

An alternative is more limited charging on motorways and main A roads. Implementation using proven technology as in France with their motorway toll tags. Relatively cheap to roll out for both EV owners and government with limited operational risks.

Number plate recognition could identify EV vs ICE. It would be possible for charges to be flexed to reflect time of day, traffic congestion etc etc.

 

[Spectric]

Looks like the Chinese may have come up with some wonder battery technology to replace Lithium Ion .

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...onary-electric-car-battery-charge-10-minutes/

 

[Sachakins]

True, but in the interim this is now the new rules and they are retrospective too!

Clip taken from

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vehicle-tax-for-electric-and-low-emissions-vehicles

From 1 April 2025, drivers of electric and low emission cars, vans and motorcycles will need to pay vehicle tax in the same way as drivers of petrol and diesel vehicles. This change will apply to both new and existing vehicles.

This new measure effectively removes band A under the existing VED system which is currently £0. Vehicles in this band will be required to move to the first band where a rate becomes payable.
Electric and low emission cars registered on or after 1 April 2025
You will need to pay the lowest first year rate of vehicle tax (which applies to vehicles with CO2 emissions 1 to 50g/km). From the second tax payment onwards, these vehicles will pay the standard rate. This is £190 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025.

Electric and low emission cars registered between 1 April 2017 and 31 March 2025
You will pay the standard rate. This is £190 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025.

Electric and low emission cars registered between 1 March 2001 and 31 March 2017
These vehicles will move to the first band that has a VED value. This is £20 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025.

Hybrid and alternatively fuelled vehicles (AFVs)
The £10 annual discount for hybrid and AFVs will be removed, and the rate you will pay will depend on when the vehicle was first registered. If the vehicle was:

registered before 1 April 2017 - this rate will depend on the vehicle’s CO2 emissions (check the current rates for this vehicle)

registered on or after 1 April 2017 - you will pay the standard rate (this is £190 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025)

 

[woodieallen]

Wind and solar farms power Great Britain’s grid to greenest ever summer

"Analysis of energy generation data, commissioned by the Guardian, revealed that Britain’s reliance on fossil fuels fell in August to less than one-fifth of all electricity, or 4 terawatt hours (TWh), its lowest ever level for a one-month period.

This allowed the carbon intensity of the power grid to plummet to the lowest level recorded for a single month, at 144g of CO2 per kilowatt-hour in August, 40% lower than in the same month last year, according to the analysis."

Yes, I know the sun shines more in the summer. But this has to be good news for those of us who think that non-fossil fuel energy generation is a good thing. Not to mention energy security.

Energy security .....being able to turn on some power when (a) the wind is not blowing and (b) it is not nighttime. We need more nuclear power but until such time we need the ability to burn gas to generate electricity at times when there ain't no wind or sun.

 

[woodieallen]

You could also use the corollary, that as EV use rises and ICE declines the price of petrol and diesel will rise!

Um no...basic economics. If the demand for your product reduces you don't put the price up.

Also altering the price of charging for EVs is simply a few keystrokes.

 

[woodieallen]

.....
Plus forcing energy companies to distinguish between home power usage and vehicle charge usage. Then the government could put levy on that part only. Can be done using current car/charger integration technology.

Technologically impossible to achieve unless you have locable charging points for EVs....such points monitored centraly by the power companies etc etc.

I foresee the more simplistic view of pay per mile, with EV having to pay more per mile, if they keep the duty on fuel for ICE.

The simplest approach for government, would be to scrap road tax, scrap fuel excise duty and load it all on to pay per mile charge. Shows no favouritism to any vehicle and screws all drivers all the time!

Agree 100% privided that there is an allowance for those who live rurally