Electric vehicles

[profchris]

But I don't believe self driving cars are as good as most humans and won't be for a long time, if at all. Our 'processing' power is just much better.

For my book just out (AI Fairness and Beyond, but it's priced for practising lawyers and libraries so I doubt it will be on anyone here's Christmas list) I tried to work out how close the quality of driving is, using data from California which has seen the most extensive use of self driving cars on the roads.

My analysis suggests that in 2019 the quality of driving was roughly equal - self-driving cars caused slightly more reported accidents than human drivers, but with less damage and injury (and it was probable that many human accidents were unreported whereas all self driving car accidents had to be reported to the regulator). Deaths per 100,000 miles were certainly lower than for human drivers. [Sources for the analysis: Jun Wang, Li Zhang, Yanjun Huang, Jian Zhao and Francesco Bella, ‘Safety of autonomous vehicles’ (2020) Journal of Advanced Transportation 1; US government statistics, crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/813060.]

I'm confident that self driving cars have improved since then, and that human drivers have not.

Societal acceptance lags behind statistics, of course, but it gets there if the technology proves itself safe enough for humans to feel comfortable with it. Remember that trains were seen as far more dangerous than horses in the early 1800s (at 40 mph humans would obviously be unable to breathe), and bicycles were too dangerous for women to ride because they would become infertile. More recently, the first fly-by-wire passenger aircraft caused a similar outcry, and even ABS on cars was seen as suspect.

I'm confident we will see self-driving cars on some UK roads within around 5 years. From what I know, rural roads are a special challenge and might be quite a lot further away - surprisingly, the technologies being developed to allow drones to fly in uncontrolled airspace might be a possible route towards self-driving cars on rural roads.

 

[Blackswanwood]

There are plenty of driverless trains around the world. The example I am most familiar with is the Copenhagen metro system where they rarely have any staff at all on the trains.

The DLR in London is another example

 

[paulrbarnard]

... and how many people it will kill before it is safe.

Teslas 'self driving' has separately killed 2 motorcyclists so far as there seems to be a problem with it seeing twin rear lights on certain bikes close together and thinking it is a car in the distance. Mostly because tesla doesn't want to pay for lidar and relies on optics which just aren't good enough.

That’s because Tesla IS NOT self driving. It’s an ADAS system and people expect way more than it is capable of because of Tesla marketing.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I cant help sorry, so I've asked on an Ebike forum im on and should get the answer to you soonish.
Owner of that forum built something similar, and put together a rather nice bike, so there is at least that thread about it.
Failing any replies I'll hunt down that info on that forum

Dji just released some great kit. It’s intended for third party manufacturers but it might be available to individuals.

 

[selectortone]

There are plenty of driverless trains around the world. The example I am most familiar with is the Copenhagen metro system where they rarely have any staff at all on the trains.

The train that takes you to central New York from Newark Airport is driverless. Interestingly, it has a windscreen wiper which I though was a bit unnecessary .

 

[Nick.]

Hope your Mum is OK Cobbs.

What3words is accurate to 3sqm. If you go on the website with a cellphone it will give you the three words that correspond to your current geolocation. People have been found halfway up mountains in fog using it.

Agree - I had to call 999 about two years back after witnessing a HGV crash into a car that pulled out from a side road in front of them on a main 50mph road. (No fatalities thankfully)
I knew the A road name and roughly where we were, but the 999 call operator asked me to use what 3 words so they could pinpoint us.

 

[Jacob]

The TFL have wanted to remove all the drivers on the underground for years. The only thing that has stopped them is the unions.

Good for the unions!

 

[Jacob]

Replacing train drivers, now that is funny, we could not even get rid of the guards without massive strike intervention...

Quite right too.
I see we have Telegraph readers in the thread!
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...trade-unions-workers-rights-labour-mick-lynch

 

[Nick.]

There are plenty of driverless trains around the world. The example I am most familiar with is the Copenhagen metro system where they rarely have any staff at all on the trains.

As kids we used to ride the original Maglev at Birmingham airport in the mid 80's for a laugh, it was pretty cool - If I remember, about 10p got us an entire train/bus pass for the day across B'ham in school holidays and the maglev was still new and futuristic.

 

[Jacob]

Is that your Luddism tendency showing through Jacob?

No just realism. Current vehicle (Mazda 6) has cameras/screens for reversing, lane correction etc but it doesn't take much to spoil the picture!
And also people don't seem to see the link between automation, increased productivity etc, and unemployment, not to mention the poorer quality of unattended services.

 

[Blackswanwood]

No just realism. Current vehicle (Mazda 6) has cameras/screens for reversing, lane correction etc but it doesn't take much to spoil the picture!

Waymo (owned by Alphabet aka Google) are now doing 100,000 taxi journeys per week. The volume has doubled in the last few months. It’s not science fiction - it’s here. There are others but Waymo seem to be setting the pace and are pouring money into it.

I was sceptical but saw them first operating last year. I’m not saying I like the concept and maybe it’s even a bit scary but it’s also quite amazing.

 

[Nick.]

@Blackswanwood - It is amazing tech I agree, but did you see the Waymo vid where they where are all automatically sounding their horns in the parking lot haha - it was funny (not for the people living near though). Apparently Waymo solved the issue with a new algorithm that detected when they were in the depot.

 

[Blackswanwood]

@Blackswanwood - It is amazing tech I agree, but did you see the Waymo vid where they where are all automatically sounding their horns in the parking lot haha - it was funny (not for the people living near though). Apparently Waymo solved the issue with a new algorithm that detected when they were in the depot.

I’d not seen that one Nick but I was back out there a couple of months ago and there was a news item about the teething issues they’d been through. Waymo were also getting some stick as they don’t get parking tickets if they are waiting at the kerb as the regulations say the car had to be parked by a driver for it to be illegal. I’m guessing Alphabet have some clever lawyers!

 

[Cobbs]

There is no reason for cars to weigh less either. Weight is not important. Large & heavy cars can be more economical than smaller and lighter cars. Why not consider a car's economy rather than its size or weight?

As an example, my first car was a 1966 850cc Mini. It used 50% more fuel than my current BMW yet had much worse performance, far less comfort and weighed far less.

Except of course for the increased amount of material in a heavier car - it all has to come from somewhere and the amount of energy used to actually make the car in the first place is very significant.

 

[johnbb99]

Just4Fun said: As an example, my first car was a 1966 850cc Mini. It used 50% more fuel than my current BMW yet had much worse performance, far less comfort and weighed far less.

Take two identical cars and put extra weight in one, and it will be less economical. Ask any engineer.
Your Mini / bmw comparison is like comparing apples and walnuts. Mini had terrible aerodynamics, relatively inefficient engine etc etc. Vehicle design and sophistication has advanced massively in so many different ways since the 1950s.

 

[Rhossydd]

Except of course for the increased amount of material in a heavier car - it all has to come from somewhere and the amount of energy used to actually make the car in the first place is very significant.

Which is negated if the car uses half the fuel, has much lower emissions and the total working life is greatly increased*.
Possibly criticise increased weight if you think it makes much difference to road surface life.

*My first car was 4 years old when I bought it in '81 within 18months it had failed an MOT for corrosion, scrapped at 12 years old. You don't hear that happening much now.

 

[Noel]

To top it off, the EU are banning Chinese ev’s that are available to buy now and are affordable (I know, what ever happened to saving the planet), to protect German and French car manufacturers.

No, Chinese manufactured EV models have not been banned from the EU market. Tariffs of 17-38% are being imposed along with the usual 10% import duty.

 

[trvlr]

Pre WW2 Rovers had the free wheel;. My '38 Rover 14 had one, and so did the Rover 12. It was declared illegal to use it I think sometime after WW2...? And you certainly couldn't engage/use it on your driving test.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I can agree to a certain extent. To be honest I'm amazed at how well our roads work considering we can be passing at 60mph with only a white line to separate us.

But I don't believe self driving cars are as good as most humans and won't be for a long time, if at all. Our 'processing' power is just much better. Adding assists to compliment drivers makes more sense to me.

We haven't even removed the drivers on trains yet and they go forward or backwards along a pre-determined route.

Have a look at this and then decide whether driverless is on its way. Tesla. I accept that some of the roads are wider and less congested than many in the UK, and that the video would have been pulled had it contained anything of danger. But it is still "not if but when" (my guess 3-5 years)

That we still have drivers on trains is due to union resistance (jobs etc), and an inability to embrace change on the part of the industry.

If the tech employed were at the Tesla level there would be no need for drivers, save that a risk analysis would have 100s at risk in the unlikely event of a failure vs 1-5 in the average car.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Because the last time we were discussing at work about Pen tests, cyber-security (or lack of) and windfarms, the conclusion was a disaster waiting to happen.

Cyber security failures are common to all types of power generation and distribution. Similarly physical attacks on infrastructure.

Fossil fuels add to insecurity through reliance on global markets for both price and delivery.

Or have I missed something??