Electric vehicles

[Ozi]

The whole issue of EV's is that fundermentally it sounds a good idea on paper but rather than make the huge jump from ICE to EV which is just far to big a jump we need to get there in logical steps. The current idea is just going to cause too many issues with our electrical infrastructure, refineries and jobs so make the first step a big reduction in the consumption of petroleum based fuel by going hybrid but one where there is no mechanical link from the ICE to the wheels, rather the ICE drives a generator much like a locomotive. Now you can have far more fuel efficient ICE's because they are there only to keep the battery topped up and maybe provide extra power when needed. Now no issues with home chargers, queueing to access a charger and then waiting for it to charge. Now you have a breathing space in which technology can work towards the all electric EV.

I think we are almost there, plenty of self charging hybrids around. When I first encountered them I couldn't understand why they were built without the ability to plug in. It's all about battery management, get the computer to control how and when charging occurs and you can get much better battery life, but that's changing as batteries are developed. In this way they were saving more direct carbon emission per mass of battery metals over the vehicle life than contemporary EVs although that depends heavily on how you generate the electricity used to charge.

I'm not sure about the engine / generator combination, it must be efficient when used in locomotives or they would not be doing it, I suspect that this is connected to the need for a locomotive to have significant weight and that it might not be the best way for road vehicles - that last bit is opinion not fact, if there is anyone out there with knowledge I'd appreciate the education

 

[John Brown]

Engine/generator/electric motor, you've just reinvented the Chevy Volt(probably others...).

 

[Ozi]

Have we talked about where all that extra generating capacity is going to come from if everyone is charging overnight ?

Note the peaks and troughs. Time for me to bleat on about small cars again!

Currently there is a maximum capacity of wind generation that can be economically installed as we cannot store power for any length of time. Use surplus wind to generate hydrogen and you achieve 3% efficiency working from blade to wheel, sounds hopeless.

Same calculation for oil based fuels if you include extraction refining all transport etc, 3% efficient.... odd that.


Graph courtesy of MYGrid GB

 

[Spectric]

I'm not sure about the engine / generator combination, it must be efficient when used in locomotives or they would not be doing it

The main reason in loco's is that it is easy to distribute electric motors on the wheel shafts rather than having to use gearboxs and drive shafts, in auto's once the ICE becomes just the generator then it can run a much narrower power / torque band which allows for much better combustion efficiency and lower emissions, plus you could place the motors in the wheel hubs and now four wheel drive with no differentials, gearbox or driven axles.

 

[John Brown]

The main reason in loco's is that it is easy to distribute electric motors on the wheel shafts rather than having to use gearboxs and drive shafts, in auto's once the ICE becomes just the generator then it can run a much narrower power / torque band which allows for much better combustion efficiency and lower emissions, plus you could place the motors in the wheel hubs and now four wheel drive with no differentials, gearbox or driven axles.

I think you might have just reinvented the Toyota Prius.

 

[Speaker]

Yes Roger, numbers and capacity to charge quickly is the real issue.

Has no one in the government, civil service, climate change people etc, gone down the M5 to Devon/Cornwall on a bank holiday!! There are queues already for fuel and it only takes 5 mins to fill and pay!!

Phil

Regarding the availability of charging stations it seems there is a fundamental capacity problem.

If you consider a single petrol/diesel pump and assume it takes on average approx 5 mins to fuel, 12 vehicles an hour could be serviced through that single pump.

How many chargers would be needed to supply a similar throughput for battery electric vehicles (BEV)?

Let's be generous (unrealistic) and assume a charger can charge a BEV to full capacity in an hour. This would mean that to achieve the same throughput you would need 12 charging stations together with the associated physical space.

This always assume there is sufficient capacity in the local grid to supply the electricity!

 

[Sachakins]

Regarding the availability of charging stations it seems there is a fundamental capacity problem.

If you consider a single petrol/diesel pump and assume it takes on average approx 5 mins to fuel, 12 vehicles an hour could be serviced through that single pump.

How many chargers would be needed to supply a similar throughput for battery electric vehicles (BEV)?

Let's be generous (unrealistic) and assume a charger can charge a BEV to full capacity in an hour. This would mean that to achieve the same throughput you would need 12 charging stations together with the associated physical space.

This always assume there is sufficient capacity in the local grid to supply the electricity!

Given the use and growth of at home charging, then this makes that analogy redundant and just another red herring.

 

[selectortone]

One day in the not too distant future people will laugh at the idea of driving off to a remote location to refuel their cars.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I don't know anyone who drives anywhere to fuel their cars, they do it when they pass a petrol station.

 

[Jacob]

The UK spent the best part of 100 years (certainly the last 60 since 1960's) evolving to take advantage of the private car.

....and to suffer the disadvantages of the private car. Even without climate change the private car era is over. Possibly the biggest mistake was to allow "parking" on public streets and other public spaces, when not in use. This was unprecedented and disastrous.
We've hit "peak car".

Changing behaviours will take decades -

Or minutes, if necessary or unavoidable.

 

[Jacob]

103 pages! At 20 posts per page (?), that's 2,060 posts about bloody cars!
There are other aspects of climate change we need to consider, beyond boy's toys!
Personal warmth could be a bigger issue.
Is thermal underwear more important than personal transport?

 

[Spectric]

I think you might have just reinvented the Toyota Prius.

Never looked at those, just thought it was another Hybrid that can run ICE or EV, but when you look closer then it is a clever drivetrain. Using two motor generators but one allows connection to the front axle and a lower power engine is used as the battery can give the extra power when needed so a cleaner vehicle but without needing to need pluging in.

 

[sploo]

Never looked at those, just thought it was another Hybrid that can run ICE or EV, but when you look closer then it is a clever drivetrain. Using two motor generators but one allows connection to the front axle and a lower power engine is used as the battery can give the extra power when needed so a cleaner vehicle but without needing to need pluging in.

The early versions of the Prius were basically the worst of all worlds; the battery was so tiny that you had almost no electric-only range, as soon as you got up to (I think it was) 30mph the petrol engine kicked in, the petrol engine was noisy and gutless, and as a result you spent most of your time lugging round the weight of the (now empty) battery and motor, with the engine wheezing away. Oh, and the battery was really expensive to replace.

Granted, I'd expect modern versions to be way better.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

103 pages! At 20 posts per page (?), that's 2,060 posts about bloody cars!
There are other aspects of climate change we need to consider, beyond boy's toys!
Personal warmth could be a bigger issue.
Is thermal underwear more important than personal transport?

Possibly. If you're on the train to Pyongyang.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I don't know anyone who drives anywhere to fuel their cars, they do it when they pass a petrol station.

Hi Phil, pleased to meet you. I’m someone who has on multiple occasions had to go out specially to get fuel, drive in the wrong direction and generally find trying to get to a petrol station a pain in the proverbial.
Most recent Example: Last Friday night my wife told me she was going to visit our daughter in the morning and she hadn’t filled up with fuel. On the route we take we do not see a fuel station until we almost reach Bristol. I had to go out on Friday night to specifically fill up the car.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You must run your tank a lot lower than we ever run ours. Maybe it's a habit born of years of not being able to buy it at all after about 6pm.

 

[Speaker]

Given the use and growth of at home charging, then this makes that analogy redundant and just another red herring.

Please don’t get me wrong, I am strongly in favour of alternatives to the internal combustion engine. I just struggle to see how the current approach can provide it.

in regards to the growth in home charging, depending on which survey you look at (and there are a lot!) an average of 30% - 40% of UK domestic properties do not have off-street parking, with this number rising to as much as 60% in cities which seem to imply if they had a BEV they would have to rely on public facilities.

 

[RogerS]

View attachment 169571Note the peaks and troughs. Time for me to bleat on about small cars again!

Currently there is a maximum capacity of wind generation that can be economically installed as we cannot store power for any length of time. Use surplus wind to generate hydrogen and you achieve 3% efficiency working from blade to wheel, sounds hopeless.

Same calculation for oil based fuels if you include extraction refining all transport etc, 3% efficient.... odd that.


Graph courtesy of MYGrid GB

Sorry. Do you have that in English ?

 

[RogerS]

Given the use and growth of at home charging, then this makes that analogy redundant and just another red herring.

No it does not. You are assuming a simple journey Home > somewhere else > home

 

[RogerS]

Shall we analyse this little diatribe ?

....and to suffer the disadvantages of the private car.

No context. No evidence. Conclusion....rant.

Even without climate change the private car era is over.

No context. No evidence. Conclusion....rant.

Possibly the biggest mistake was to allow "parking" on public streets and other public spaces, when not in use. This was unprecedented and disastrous.
We've hit "peak car".

Thus discriminating agaist all flat dwellers, anyone without a private house and a parking place on their land. So in one breath, Jacob, you are saying that everyone should have their own land? I'm sure Comrade Corbyn would not approve. You really must try and rationalise your pet soapbox of the day, Jacob.