Downlights for the kitchen

[cambournepete]

Has anyone used low energy downlights - something like these?

I like the idea of halogen downlights, but I don't like the running costs or the heat they generate, so the low energy ones look ideal to me.

Any thoughts or comments gratefully received

 

[TonyW]

Are you looking at the GU10 type? Think they look pretty good.

You may already know this but I believe the kitchen is seen as a special location and any new electrical work should be carried out by a qualified person i.e. Part P? - or at least it is notifiable to the local authority. I also think that the actual lights may need to have a fire rating - assuming there is a habitable room above the kitchen.

Cheers
Tony

 

[cambournepete]

Them's the ones, and I know about Part P... :roll: :wink:

 

[davy_owen_88]

I also think that the actual lights may need to have a fire rating - assuming there is a habitable room above the kitchen.

You only need fire rated downlights if there is a separate dwelling above you. You do not need them if the room above is part of your house. I have chatted to one spark who had a jobsworth inspector who insisted on fire rated spots in the kitchen though but couldn't give a reason so as with all work where you will be notifying the BCO and getting an inspection, it is worth asking them first. They get paid for it and most of the inspectors are very helpful.

 

[Woody Alan]

Well if they are the LED ones which I suspect they are but don't say, then be prepared to be underwhelmed, nice for mood lighting but if you want to see what you're doing which I tend to get the halogen and live with the cost. From limited experience I have had the 12volt ones and had very few failures. I have had to replace quite a few of the mains rated ones for my mum in a fitting in her kitchen.

Alan

 

[haggisbasher]

Evening all

floors in multi storey houses need 30min fire resistance from below even if its your house above, therefore fire rated spots or intumescent hoods are required.

It is not commonly asked for by a lot of BCOs as fire resistance in houses has been overlooked for years as usually its not a concern, a single sheet of 12mm plasterboard is enough. The number of houses these days that are built with dozens of the things means that it is becoming more of an issue.

There used to be a school of thought that a number of small holes in a fire resistant element didn't unduly affect the resistance of the ceiling. This has been widely discredited.

I wouldn't want to have no fire resistance between my kitchen and upstair bedrooms but that's just me.

Cheers
Tom

 

[davy_owen_88]

floors in multi storey houses need 30min fire resistance from below even if its your house above, therefore fire rated spots or intumescent hoods are required.

Do I need to install fire hoods/fire rated downlighters in every situation?

It really depends on whether the ceiling forms part of a fire compartmention, its construction and if it has been specified by the client/contract.

Generally speaking, a dwelling is considered to be a single compartment with regards to fire (Part B of the Building Regulations), unless it has an integral garage or has a floor that is above 4.5 m from the ground (3-storey). In the case of 3-storey dwellings, fire protection should be fitted to downlighters between the upper 2 floors unless the first and second floors are served by a protected stairway leading to two fire separated routes on the ground floor or directly to an exit door (no fire separating floors in this situation).

Where recessed downlighters are installed in ceilings that are not fire compartments such as the intermediate floor of a 2-storey dwelling, the ceiling needs to have a minimum fire rating of 30 minutes.

Research was commissioned in 1996 to look into the effect on the fire resistance of plasterboard ceilings with conventional rectangular joists having recessed downlighters installed (with no boxing in or fire hoods). The results of the tests were published in the July 1996 edition of Building Control Magazine. These results confirmed that downlighters, even without being boxed in and with no fire hoods in plasterboard ceilings, have little significant effect on fire resistance ratings up to 30 minutes. It must be inferred from these tests, therefore, that at least with plasterboard ceilings with conventional rectangular joists, it is not necessary to 'box in' downlighters or to use fire hoods for the purpose of restoring the fire resistance capability of ceilings that are not of fire compartment construction.

http://wiki.diynot.com/electrics:lighting:firehood

 

[haggisbasher]

Davey

I cant paste the relevant clauses as the regs are pdf with copy/paste and snapshot disabled but heres a link to approved doc B

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/1115314683674.html

The relevant parts are clause 7.2 page 38 and page 61 table A2

I have no axe to grind here just offering my knowledge of the regs in assistance. I wont argue that the link you post is the common perception even among many of my BC colleagues but it is not correct.

"Whats right is not always popular and whats popular is not always right" would love to attribute the quote but cant find it right now.

Cheers
Tom

 

[davy_owen_88]

Tom, I seem to have a knack of wording (or in this case not wording) things in a way that makes my comments come across in a way that people think I'm being defensive/offensive etc but I assure you I was just stating what I have read and been told, not having a go or dismissing your comments.

BUT :lol:

There are a few points I need to make. Firstly regarding 7.2.

If a fire-separating element is to be effective, then every joint, or imperfection of fit, or opening to allow services to pass through the element, should be adequately protected by sealing or fire-stopping so that the fire resistance of the element is not impaired

The definition of a FSE according to the approved doc is:

A compartment wall, compartment floor, cavity barrier and construction enclosing a protected escape route and/or a place of special fire hazard.

The approved document gives the requirements for a compartment wall/floor as:

Compartment walls and compartment floors should be provided in the circumatances described below...

5.3: Every wall separating semi-detached houses, or houses in terraces, should be constructed as a compartment wall and the houses should be considered as separate buildings.

5.4: If a domestic garage is attached to (or forms an integral part of) a dwellinghouse, the garage should be separated from the rest of the dwellinghouse.

This fits in exactly with the quote I gave earlier and Section 7.4 backs this up in a round about way by stating:

For instance, where downlighters, loudspeakers and other electrical accessories are installed, additional protection may be required to maintain the integrity of a wall or floor.

As proven during the tests mentioned in my last post, downlighters do not impair the fire rating of a ceiling sufficiently for the use of a fire rated spot to be required. This does not mean it is wrong to do so just that it is not a requirement to do so in ceilings within the same dwelling.

 

[haggisbasher]

Davey it wasnt anything about your post I just do it for a living and its hard enough debating this stuff when your on the clock, we BCOs as a breed tend to be a bit defensive because we are on the receiving end a lot, sometimes justified I'll grant you.

I was just trying to head it off in case it was headed toward something less civilised

Interpretation is the issue around any regulations and these in particular. I interpret 7.4 as saying that downlighters, speakers etc may need protection if the wall or floor they are in requires fire protection. As table A2 requires 30mins for the ceiling/floor then so does any fixture installed in it. I have often sat in a training session with 40 very experienced colleagues and have set a question like this and get 40 variations of an answer.

I have read most of the tests re downlighters in ceilings and the last I read was by BRE saying that the fire resistance of a ceiling is compromised by any holes in it. I can probably find the article if you really want a reference.

on a more practical note having had cause to evacuate my family from a house on fire I would fit the hoods or fire rated fittings. this was recently and does not colour my interpretation but it does give me a very real perspective

glad that the civilised and friendly nature of the forum is upheld throughout

cheers
Tom

 

[misterfish]

We are currently having major refurbishment and extension work carried out including a complete rewire of the property. We have specified low energy light fittings wherever possible including a fair number of GU10 downlighters.

There are a number of things to bear in mind (and I'm not going to include the 'firestop' option - we've used these at the suggestion of the electrician)

First, the low energy GU10 bulbs (they are mini-flourescents) are longer than the standard GU10 bulbs and will either protrude from the fitting (ugly) or you need downlights designed for these longer low energy bulbs. These are available from a number of sources including the company you linked to for the actual bulbs.

Another feature of these bulbs is that they take a couple of minutes to get to full brightness - useful in the bathroom when you get up in the middle of the night. This warming up is a feature of all the mini florescent low energy light bulbs we have ever used (and we've been using them for getting on to 20 years now).

The low energy light bulbs run much cooler - a standard halogen GU10 is hot (about 700 centigrade) but the miniflourescents just run warm.

We've also found that the low enegy GU10s give a wider spread of light with less of the spotlight effect.

Another option is to use LED GU10 bulbs - these run very cool but from our experience do not (yet) have enough light output for working but are OK for 'mood lighting'. These are the same size as the standard GU10 bulbs.

Obviously the power consumption is relevant. We have used 50 watt quartz halogen and the equivalent 11 watt low energy (mini flourescents) and go for the low energy types every time. We also have 1.7 watt LED bulbs in our outdoor balcony lighting and they just give a nice background light feature, but these are only about 25 watt equivalent.

Also think about if you want just downlighters or whether you want the ability to tilt the fitting to aim it at the wall etc. Most low energy GU10 fittings are fixed, but these will let you use any GU10 bulb and tilt it up to 20 degrees.

The final thing to consider is whether you want to be able to use a dimmer. LED and mini flourescent bulbs will not allow you to do this whereas the quartz halogen will. Mind you, this is not quite true as Megaman (the lamp manufacturer and not the superhero) have recently release their DorS series of lamps. The GU10 version is longer (as are all the mini flourescents) but will allow stepped dimming (100%, 66%, 33% and 5%) using either a conventional switch or a dimmer switch. I've literally just had a delivery of 8 of these that we are going to use in the living room and en-suite bathroom. They are more expensive, but if you search you can find them well reduced.

Finally, be careful about low voltage - low voltage is not low energy - a 50 watt low voltage lamp still uses 50 watts and also needs a transformer.

Misterfish

 

[davy_owen_88]

I was just trying to head it off in case it was headed toward something less civilised.

Fair enough. I am always happy to listen and be proved wrong if I have been misinformed. I have spoken to some very highly qualified electricians (some of whom teach the Part P courses and have extensive knowledge of most of the other applicable building regulations) and have been told that the BRE have performed tests that proved the opposite of what you have said - that downlighters do not impair the fire resistance of a ceiling within the 30 minute limit that is required in domestic dwellings.

If you could provide a link to the article you have read that states otherwise then I'd be very interested in reading it so that I can change my ways and that of other electricians too.

My main argument is that where there is a requirement for a compartment floor you are also required to fit a 30 minute fire resisting door. If the same fire resistance is required for 'normal' ceilings then why not make fire doors a requirement everywhere in a house? Surely a fire is going to spread through an open door faster than it will burn through a 7x2" floor joist from a few 60mm holes in a plasterboard ceiling? What about the big hole in the ceiling called a staircase? :lol:

Once again, I just want to point out that I am not being deliberately awkward, I just enjoy a good discussion with other people who know alternative information so that I can learn from it.

Regards
Davy

 

[haggisbasher]

Dave

I'm more than happy to debate with you I like a good discussion as much as anyone. I will try and find the article and post a link for you might take a day or two.

The fire resistance is to make sure that the floor remains a floor for, in this case 30 minutes. a floor must maintain the ability to carry its loads for 30mins under test and maintain its integrity i.e. not permit passage of smoke or fumes. These terms are from the BS fire tests and fire testing has three elements Loadbearing, Integrity and Insulation.

The reason that fire doors are not required in 2 storey houses is that it is considered that people can escape from first floor rooms by getting out of windows. Therefore the stair doesn't need protecting. Once you go to 3 storeys you need fire doors because you cant jump from the second floor( bearing in mind this is reasonable theory not what would you do if your house was on fire) and the only way out is back down the stair.

The reason that the ceiling/ floor needs protection is simply due to the dynamics of fire. Fires grow vertically, they emit smoke that builds up layers at the ceiling until that smoke reaches the critical temperature at which time it ignites in what is called a flashover. Even if you leave your doors open the ceiling will be at a temp of over 1000 degrees in minutes probably before the smoke reaches your nearest smoke detector.

Hope that clears up where I'm coming from, I will post the relevant info on the BRE position as soon as I find it but it was more than 2 years ago so struggling to lay my hands on it.

Cheers
Tom

 

[haggisbasher]

Still looking for the article but heres some info to mull on in the mean time

http://www.ebuild.co.uk/forums/messages/770/2772.html

http://www.dorset-technical-committee.org.uk/reports/report8.asp

http://www.theiet.org/Forums/Forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=9507&enterthread=y

Fire Rated Downlights & the Building Regulations in the UK

Document B, England & Wales; Technical Handbook No:2, Scotland; and Technical Booklet E, Northern Ireland
Demands that if a fire resistant element e.g. a ceiling protecting an upper floor, is broken into to install services, such as recessed spotlights, the fire resistance must be made good. The recent Approved Document P makes specific reference to the electrician's responsibility to ensure that the fire resistance of any floor, ceiling or wall that any services he has installed pass through, are properly re-instated, with possible legal consequences for non-compliance.

IEE Wiring Regulations 16th Edition BS 7671:2001, section 527-02-01 reinforces this same stance, and this applies to all buildings:
“Where a wiring system passes through elements of a building construction...the openings remaining...shall be sealed according to the degree of fire resistance required of the element concerned...”

The eiring regs are not an area I delve into often ( BCOs dont inspect electrical installations in Scotland and never have) but if the quote is accurate then the issue is whether or not the floor requires fire resistance and I think I have clarified that 30mins is required to all floors even in houses.

Cheers
Tom [/url]

 

[cambournepete]

OK, I'll get the fire hoods - where can I get them at sensible prices?
They cost more than the lamps or the holders!

Lots of good stuff

Thanks for that - more what I was after, however interesting the debate on fireproofing :wink:

 

[haggisbasher]

Sorry Pete didnt mean to hijack the post

 

[Shadowfax]

Just to ensure we get things correctly in perspective: from a firefighter's point of view all of what Haggisbasher said
is correct except the bit in bold.

Hot air rises but fire can spread in all directions by conduction, radiation and convection. The smoke and hot gases can, and do ignite, explosively and this is a Backdraught. A Flashover is the effect of heat on objects within a room which brings them to their ignition temperature so that they burst into flames at or very near the same time.
The worst phenomenon is the backdraught because it is much more unpredictable and is a killer. Forget the film of the same name. That is absolute b....cks!
I might not be able to add to this thread because my computer at home is down but I thought I would just clear up a particular point.
No intention of causing offence or argument.
Best wishes.

SF

Dave


The fire resistance is to make sure that the floor remains a floor for, in this case 30 minutes. a floor must maintain the ability to carry its loads for 30mins under test and maintain its integrity i.e. not permit passage of smoke or fumes. These terms are from the BS fire tests and fire testing has three elements Loadbearing, Integrity and Insulation.

The reason that fire doors are not required in 2 storey houses is that it is considered that people can escape from first floor rooms by getting out of windows. Therefore the stair doesn't need protecting. Once you go to 3 storeys you need fire doors because you cant jump from the second floor( bearing in mind this is reasonable theory not what would you do if your house was on fire) and the only way out is back down the stair.

The reason that the ceiling/ floor needs protection is simply due to the dynamics of fire. Fires grow vertically, they emit smoke that builds up layers at the ceiling until that smoke reaches the critical temperature at which time it ignites in what is called a flashover. Even if you leave your doors open the ceiling will be at a temp of over 1000 degrees in minutes probably before the smoke reaches your nearest smoke detector.

Cheers
Tom

 

[haggisbasher]

Thanks for the correction SF its appreciated

 

[davy_owen_88]

Thanks for the links Tom, I came across most of them yesterday when I was trying to convince myself I wasn't imagining what I had heard :lol:

Fire Rated Downlights & the Building Regulations in the UK

Document B, England & Wales; Technical Handbook No:2, Scotland; and Technical Booklet E, Northern Ireland
Demands that if a fire resistant element e.g. a ceiling protecting an upper floor, is broken into to install services, such as recessed spotlights, the fire resistance must be made good. The recent Approved Document P makes specific reference to the electrician's responsibility to ensure that the fire resistance of any floor, ceiling or wall that any services he has installed pass through, are properly re-instated, with possible legal consequences for non-compliance.

IEE Wiring Regulations 16th Edition BS 7671:2001, section 527-02-01 reinforces this same stance, and this applies to all buildings:
“Where a wiring system passes through elements of a building construction...the openings remaining...shall be sealed according to the degree of fire resistance required of the element concerned...”

The BS7671 quote is accurate, but the issue that is still cloudy for me (and every spark I have spoken to) is whether a 65mm hole with a metal downlighter fitted will actually reduce the fire resistance of the ceiling below the 30 minute requirement - all the info I have read so far says that they do not, but I look forward to reading the BRE report, I checked their website but they don't have any downlighter tests on there.

In the second link you posted it says:

In general, normal 240v recessed downlighters (normally about 140mm in diameter) have not been found to be problematical where there use is restricted to 3 or 4 units placed a reasonable distance apart.

Most downlighters require a hole less than half the size mentioned. The majority of the ones I have fitted required a 65mm hole.

At the bottom of the IET link it says:

we have an old document lying in the office citing a 1996 BSI test on fire resistance of ceilings fitted with downlights.
their findings....
due to the construction of the fitting, glass and metal, the ceilings passed their tests, so generally we dont fit hoods unless we are told to and then price accordingly....

I heard that BRE did a similar test that came to the same conclusion but it could be my memory playing up and it was in fact BSI. Perhaps though the BRE redid the test and found conflicting info which is what you have read more recently?

I too apologise for going on about this Pete. If I can offer one bit of advice it would be not to buy hoods and buy fire rated downlighters such as these. The reason is that the hoods reduce the airflow that is required to dissipate the immense amount of heat these buggers put out so covering them with a hood isn't a good idea in normal use.

 

[cambournepete]

I too apologise for going on about this Pete.

No problem - it's the nature of internet fora and adds to the group knowledge anyway.

If I can offer one bit of advice it would be not to buy hoods and buy fire rated downlighters such as these.

They look like just what I'm after - thanks