Does an edge last longer with a back bevel ?Scrub plane talk

[Ttrees]

Hello folks
I've been pondering this for some time and the subject has never came up so here it goes ... bare with me
I've read that a lot of luthiers advise not to grind end cutters /fret cutters totally flat / flush
and to keep a tiny back bevel on them, as the edge lasts considerably longer .

Could this principal be the same for a plane iron ?
It got me thinking about another thread (at least I think it was in another thread ???)
About the apparently unclear motive for the scrub plane ...
I stand to be corrected on my memory of the following ! ....
but I remember a suggestion that it was possibly for the average Joe Bloggs
and possibly intended for hogging off material off a swollen door for example ,no need for a double iron atall ....

This doesn't sit well for me ,but I'm sure the person had more rational than that, of which I'm forgetting .

I presume there would be loooads of scrubs around if this was the case !
In my mind if you were Joe Bloggs back then (apologies if there's actually some dude with the same name :roll: )
You'd have the fantastic double iron in your possession and it would do it all ,and you'd not need another plane .

I'm not gonna go looking yet on the quest for the first scrub plane that Stanley ever produced, but I'm gonna take a pot shot
and guess it was after the bailey double iron design .
The bailey design came after the premium bedrock series ...right ?

Ole Leonard was no fool .. we know he was one for not wasting money or resources, with his thin irons ...
I presume it would have been very expensive to make another design, that of which a ....no.3 (?) could do ...
well, maybe with an extra iron ..
Also I seem to remember reading, he was one for giving the everyday craftsperson value for money too .
It seems to me, he got the feeling that the back bevel held an edge for longer and this is partly the reason for the plane design.

So has anyone suspected that the back bevel edge lasts longer ?
Has anyone noticed any signs of this, with those single iron woodies ? ...did single iron plane making continue after the new technology
of the double iron ?
Thanks for reading folks ,and hope yer all keepin warm, makin those beautiful shavings
T

Ding ding (hammer)

 

[JohnPW]

If it does, i would think that's because the bevel of the cutting edge is higher. If the iron has a 30 degree edge, and then you add a back bevel of say 10 degrees, then the edge would have a bevel of 40 degrees, which would stay sharp longer but at the expense of being harder to push.

 

[deema]

A Scub is a single iron plane, no adjustment mechanism as there is no need for any refinement. It's for hogging off excess stuff. As such I believe the traditional way of dealing with a dulling blade is to touch it up on the grinder, no refining of the edge with various sharpening techniques. The idea is to get something that will cut without too much effort, yes, it will cause tear out, but that's simply refined with the next plane usually a foreplane. I touch up my scrub blade on a grinder. The blade is very thick, much thicker than a standard plane blade.

 

[Ttrees]

Well I h

A Scub is a single iron plane, no adjustment mechanism as there is no need for any refinement. It's for hogging off excess stuff. As such I believe the traditional way of dealing with a dulling blade is to touch it up on the grinder, no refining of the edge with various sharpening techniques. The idea is to get something that will cut without too much effort, yes, it will cause tear out, but that's simply refined with the next plane usually a foreplane. I touch up my scrub blade on a grinder. The blade is very thick, much thicker than a standard plane blade.

Well Is there any evidence of this ? ...doubtful, if there are any scrub planes still in totally original condition with the original single facet grind marks on them...
and not a refined edge to be seen
I'm sure somewhere there's bailey pattern planes with a refined edge that's straight out of the factory ...
Maybe Patrick Leach author of the blood and gore plane dating write-up has encountered some ?

I can't see that any cutting edge would not need refinement I'm afraid
Have you done a test and noticed not much difference, between a refined edge and a ground edge on this plane ?
It doesn't take long to take another crack o the whip in regards to blade refinement ....
In my experience its always worth it .
What are you getting at with the thick iron though ?
It seems like theirs argument for lots of factors for this ...

In your favor the iron would not heat up as much during grinding ,but I can't see that, as being that much of an advantage .
as much advantage as as a disadvantage with the extra cost involved ...especially if your grinding the edge so often .

That's another reason for a thick iron in my case, although against that , the bedding angle could maybe be lower on this plane
to counter the extra force required to push .....but with a heavy camber I've got to wonder how much ? .

I'm sure it doesn't need to be said that
No one will argue that this plane is for refined work ...unless you want big scallops with tearout .

 

[ED65]

I've read that a lot of luthiers advise not to grind end cutters /fret cutters totally flat / flush
and to keep a tiny back bevel on them, as the edge lasts considerably longer .

I don't know how much difference it makes on those tools, but on a plane iron I think "considerably longer" would exaggerate things a little, subject to the usual variables.

Probably the most obvious would be the honing angles on each side, where if you form an edge that's not at the standard 30-35° or thereabouts but instead something in the region of 45° the edge will be significantly more robust. But it can also mean the plane offers significantly more resistance.

In relation to a scrub or roughing plane specifically though whether any of this is of much consequence is open to question. I know I'm not going to try putting a back bevel on any of my cambered blades to investigate it 8)

I presume there would be loooads of scrubs around if this was the case !

I wouldn't read too much into that. Go back far enough and even tools that were undoubtedly as common as dirt haven't survived in large numbers.

...did single iron plane making continue after the new technology of the double iron ?

Yes, for a considerable period the planes coexisted in the tool catalogues. In a small way single-iron bench planes are still made today, meaning they've coexisted for nearly three centuries.

I can't see that any cutting edge would not need refinement I'm afraid

FYI, turners very frequently use chisels straight from the grinder.

You can even smooth plane with an iron taken straight from a natural or artificial stone somewhere in the 'medium grit' category without a really large difference in surface quality or in planing effort. Paul Sellers refers to this in passing in one of his main sharpening videos. With the right wheel in your grinder you'd have an edge that wouldn't be much different to what a stone like that would produce, and some finer wheels can produce an edge far better than that.

Have you done a test and noticed not much difference, between a refined edge and a ground edge on this plane ?

I've done regular comparative tests using various sharpening regimens, on 4s set up as smoothers, one no. 4 set up as a roughing plane, a low-angle block plane, a high-angle block plane, some coffin smoothers and I think also a wooden jack.

There's not nearly the difference in planing effort or in the surface produced that you might expect, so much so that sometimes you can't tell.

 

[swagman]

Have you done a test and noticed not much difference, between a refined edge and a ground edge on this plane ?
I've done regular comparative tests using various sharpening regimens, on 4s set up as smoothers, one no. 4 set up as a roughing plane, a low-angle block plane, a high-angle block plane, some coffin smoothers and I think also a wooden jack.

There's not nearly the difference in planing effort or in the surface produced that you might expect, so much so that sometimes you can't tell.

A most unusual claim to make Ed65.

. Early days yet but so far I think they'll hold up fine. As for how well they work, being able to come onto the stone straight from the edge is interesting. Interesting in a good way. I'm less sure of the advantage coming to the end of a stroke but I haven't used it for long or very frequently because I maintain edges with a loaded strop, so my blades need to see stones very infrequently!

I don't find overshooting a problem myself, I've actually taken to deliberately doing it when working the flat of the chisel/plane iron.

Anyway I'll post an update at some point in the future with my impressions of the end-grain blocks.

http://i.imgur.com/V7foHkQ.jpg
show-us-your-sharpening-stone-boxes-t101546-15.html

 

[ED65]

What about the quote confused you in light of the above?

As I say in the quote I maintain sharpness between honings so almost every edge will eventually be stropped, no matter how it started out.

Also, in case it actually needs to be highlighted, I say above sometimes you can't tell. Sometimes doesn't mean all the time. I mostly work in softwoods and softer native species of hardwood or fruitwood, on those you normally can't tell the difference as long as you properly removed the burr on your abrasive before putting the plane to work. But of course with harder woods or the occasional piece that's very knotty you benefit from bringing your very sharpest edges to the table.

 

[D_W]

I'd suspect the longest lasting edge is somewhere around 45 degrees bedding with 30 or so degrees of bevel. A second bevel is indicated only if an iron is taking damage (odate's text mentions adding a back bevel for over-hard irons or when planing teak, but an iron in an 8/10 bu japanese plane is already at a fairly acute angle and is more likely to take damage from tough wood).

If the second bevel isn't needed for strength, it's closer to the same geometry of dullness and would present extra work.

I think bailey predated bedrock, and probably both predated the idea of a "scrub plane", which is a construction tool. I had two scrubs before I had a proper jack plane set up to do a lot of removal - they were more of a novelty than anything. I'd guess that if they received a back bevel over time in sharpening, it was a side product of technique and not by design as it might've been on moulding planes.

 

[bugbear]

Since a back bevel alters effective pitch, increasing the required planing effort, and since some scrubs actually have slightly low bedding angles (40 degrees) to reduce planing effort, I'd not recommend a back bevel.

If edge retention is an issue, instead of honing at 30 and using a 5 degree back bevel, just hone at 35 and have a flat back. Same edge strength, less planing effort.

BugBear

 

[ED65]

I don't think with the diagonal planing most scrubs are used for, as well as the semi-shearing cut the edge does anyway, that a slight change in presentation angle wound end up being noticeable in most cases. My reservations about this would stem from how much of a PITA putting a consistent back bevel would be on such a steeply curved edge.

If edge retention is the problem BB's suggestion above is the usual fix on any bevel-down plane or with chisels, it'll give practically the same effect while being far simpler and faster to do.

You could consider redoing the heat treatment though. If the iron is a touch on the soft side then quite straightforward to get it harder. If it's a touch on the hard side and is chipping then it's easy as pie to soften it slightly in a domestic oven, or with care using the gas burner on a cooker or stove top.

 

[Trafalgar]

"...did single iron plane making continue after the new technology of the double iron?"

People used to just gush about the performance of Clark & Williams single-iron smoothing planes. These are pitched at 55* I think. They supplied planes to Colonial Williamsburg and others of the same ilk. Seemed like the gushing stopped when one of the principal's health began to deteriorate and they got hopelessly behind on back orders. One assumes none of this had anything to do with the actual performance of the planes which, again, was routinely reported to be excellent and above reproach -- "first time I've ever planed X with no tear out, etc., etc." Figments of active imaginations? Wishful thinking? Consumer psychology?

They renamed the company and their website can be found here: http://www.planemaker.com/

"Planes from Old Street Tool are based on early 18th Century British planes which we believe represent the highest quality planes ever produced. We offer the complete line described by Richard Neve in his 1736 The City and Country Purchaser's BUILDERS DICTIONARY. These planes will enable a woodworker to complete nearly any work traditionally done with hand planes and is the most complete line of planes offered in North America since the demise of the Sandusky Tool Company in 1925."

 

[swagman]

There's over 1/2 a dozen quality plane makers still making single iron hand planes.

 

[D_W]

"...did single iron plane making continue after the new technology of the double iron?"

People used to just gush about the performance of Clark & Williams single-iron smoothing planes. These are pitched at 55* I think. They supplied planes to Colonial Williamsburg and others of the same ilk. Seemed like the gushing stopped when one of the principal's health began to deteriorate and they got hopelessly behind on back orders. One assumes none of this had anything to do with the actual performance of the planes which, again, was routinely reported to be excellent and above reproach -- "first time I've ever planed X with no tear out, etc., etc." Figments of active imaginations? Wishful thinking? Consumer psychology?

They renamed the company and their website can be found here: http://www.planemaker.com/

"Planes from Old Street Tool are based on early 18th Century British planes which we believe represent the highest quality planes ever produced. We offer the complete line described by Richard Neve in his 1736 The City and Country Purchaser's BUILDERS DICTIONARY. These planes will enable a woodworker to complete nearly any work traditionally done with hand planes and is the most complete line of planes offered in North America since the demise of the Sandusky Tool Company in 1925."

Colonial Williamsburg only used single iron planes because the curators wouldn't allow them to use double iron planes. They didn't believe they were common enough in the area in the 18th century. The choice wasn't made based on what works best, and if a user of planes there had preferred to use a double iron, they would not have been allowed. They have no economic need to use the better plane design because their income is based on tickets, not trade output.

The market of actual professional users in the late 1700s and early 1800s made a very clear choice, they paid quite a bit of extra money for a second iron and the single iron disappeared except in some low budget planes and planes with complex profiles. And they did it everywhere. In continental europe, in England and in the United States. It's clear that users saw the economic benefit right away - it would be hard not to unless one was using planes only to smooth, and i'm not sure when that became common.

Larry doesn't know how to use the double iron and makes the claim that you can't reliably set it close enough to use. His regular comments about it make it clear that he still doesn't know. The early part of his business was kept afloat by colonial williamsburg orders, so it's not like he'd have had a choice to make double iron planes and sell them to CW, and aside from not knowing how to use the double iron and having no clientele that knew how (i double the non-williamsburg clientele use the planes much in the first place - I've never seen a picture of one with significant wear), making a double iron would've put significant extra work into the plane making for larry and he'd have had to learn the best design for the double iron, all of the plane internals that go along with it, slot an iron, make a cap iron and screw and probably get no extra amount for it. The bulk of the customers probably have enough trouble sharpening their irons and don't need to figure out anything else.

Larry's explanation for why there aren't many single iron planes around after the double iron became comment is that users preferred them and "used them up". You wouldn't think he's kidding about that, but he's not.

The return of the single iron planes only came about with a beginner's market and the fact that planes aren't used for a high % of the work for most people. Anyone using them for more than smoothing and who learns to use a double iron will be a quick convert. They work faster, with less effort, let you have fewer planes, generally leave a better surface and go longer before resharpening. They're superior unless a user doesn't know how to set them, it's as simple as that.

 

[D_W]

There's over 1/2 a dozen quality plane makers still making single iron hand planes.

Either for smoothing or for beginners (or block planes, etc).

I guess I couldn't really find a current planemaker targeted at professional users, if you wanted an educated market decision on planes, you'd have to look at the market a couple of hundred years ago, and they made a clear choice.

 

[swagman]

The return of the single iron planes only came about with a beginner's market and the fact that planes aren't used for a high % of the work for most people. Anyone using them for more than smoothing and who learns to use a double iron will be a quick convert. They work faster, with less effort, let you have fewer planes, generally leave a better surface and go longer before resharpening. They're superior unless a user doesn't know how to set them, it's as simple as that.

DW; I still rely on single iron woodies, so you will have to excuse me from adding further comment on your claims.

Stewie;

 

[swagman]

DW; I will be honest you, the following claim you make is full of unqualified jargon and bias. No offense intended.

Stewie;

The market of actual professional users in the late 1700s and early 1800s made a very clear choice, they paid quite a bit of extra money for a second iron and the single iron disappeared except in some low budget planes and planes with complex profiles. And they did it everywhere. In continental europe, in England and in the United States. It's clear that users saw the economic benefit right away - it would be hard not to unless one was using planes only to smooth, and i'm not sure when that became common.

 

[Steve1066]

There's over 1/2 a dozen quality plane makers still making single iron hand planes.

Either for smoothing or for beginners (or block planes, etc).

I guess I couldn't really find a current planemaker targeted at professional users, if you wanted an educated market decision on planes, you'd have to look at the market a couple of hundred years ago, and they made a clear choice.

What about Japanese plane. single iron planes made for professional craftsman whit the boutique market being secondary.
Just my two pence worth

 

[D_W]

The return of the single iron planes only came about with a beginner's market and the fact that planes aren't used for a high % of the work for most people. Anyone using them for more than smoothing and who learns to use a double iron will be a quick convert. They work faster, with less effort, let you have fewer planes, generally leave a better surface and go longer before resharpening. They're superior unless a user doesn't know how to set them, it's as simple as that.

DW; I still rely on single iron woodies, so you will have to excuse me from adding further comment on your claims.

Stewie;

Everyone did at one point, and then everyone moved to double irons once they figured them out. You can, too.

 

[swagman]

And you can add to that list modern manufacturers of bevel up bench planes. No different in principal to a high angle approach to control tear out.

 

[D_W]

There's over 1/2 a dozen quality plane makers still making single iron hand planes.

Either for smoothing or for beginners (or block planes, etc).

I guess I couldn't really find a current planemaker targeted at professional users, if you wanted an educated market decision on planes, you'd have to look at the market a couple of hundred years ago, and they made a clear choice.

What about Japanese plane. single iron planes made for professional craftsman whit the boutique market being secondary.
Just my two pence worth

Japanese planes are double iron planes, and the cap iron is important enough to them to go to the trouble of making laminated cap irons by hand.

Odate's book is one of the sources that people sort of glossed over where he's pretty clear about using the cap iron on planes.