swagman":18hx0k3v said:
The market for those planes is beginners, there's a very substantial difference in how the two different types work, and surface quality aside, kees quantified part of it with mechanical tests.
Does an edge last longer with a back bevel ?Scrub plane talk
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The market for those planes is beginners, there's a very substantial difference in how the two different types work, and surface quality aside, kees quantified part of it with mechanical tests.
What about Japanese plane. single iron planes made for professional craftsman whit the boutique market being secondary.
Just my two pence worth[/quote]
Japanese planes are double iron planes, and the cap iron is important enough to them to go to the trouble of making laminated cap irons by hand.
Odate's book is one of the sources that people sort of glossed over where he's pretty clear about using the cap iron on planes.[/quote]
Not all Japanese plane are double iron, and the one that are single iron are made for the professional market. Not the beginner or boutique market. 'The reason I quoted you in my comment.'
As for modern single iron planes, nice marketing gimmick to sell more plane to the boutique market and don't know betters.
A well set up cheep double iron plane will out perform a well set up boutique single iron plane in my experience.
Most of the single iron planes ars low angle, marketing gimmick in my opinion in less you planning on planning a lot of end grain butchers blocks.
I do own no62 low angles, it a very nice ornaments
Rant over
Just my two pence worth[/quote]
Japanese planes are double iron planes, and the cap iron is important enough to them to go to the trouble of making laminated cap irons by hand.
Odate's book is one of the sources that people sort of glossed over where he's pretty clear about using the cap iron on planes.[/quote]
Not all Japanese plane are double iron, and the one that are single iron are made for the professional market. Not the beginner or boutique market. 'The reason I quoted you in my comment.'
As for modern single iron planes, nice marketing gimmick to sell more plane to the boutique market and don't know betters.
A well set up cheep double iron plane will out perform a well set up boutique single iron plane in my experience.
Most of the single iron planes ars low angle, marketing gimmick in my opinion in less you planning on planning a lot of end grain butchers blocks.
I do own no62 low angles, it a very nice ornaments
Rant over
I haven't seen too many new manufacture (maybe not any) japanese planes that didn't have a cap iron, though if you're lucky enough to be working perfect softwoods, it's not necessary to use one and I recall reading about some professional users who leave them out for most work.
I agree with what you're saying about single irons and inexpensive double iron planes. I think the makers are selling to their market, and the vast part of the market is people who don't want to refurbish anything and who don't want to have to learn much to use tools.
I agree with what you're saying about single irons and inexpensive double iron planes. I think the makers are selling to their market, and the vast part of the market is people who don't want to refurbish anything and who don't want to have to learn much to use tools.
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
The planes I turn to first are double iron ... however, I have and still use single iron planes, and they are capable of first class work. All planes, set up correctly, and used in the appropriate conditions, can provide all the performance one seeks. Let's not go getting religious about planes. If you know what to do, they will do what you want.
Why do I prefer double iron? Partly because they are BD, and the chipbreaker can control tearout with low bed angles. My Veritas Custom #4 smoother has a 42 degree frog, and my Custom #7 jointer has a 40 degree frog. Low cutting angles are easier to push, and bevel down blades have a lower bevel and are easier to hone.
I started off using high angle single iron planes. Either made them or used HNT Gordon. They work extremely well in the interlocked hardwood of Western Australia. The downside to high angles is that the blades will dull faster. They are less effective on softer woods, where the surface finish is not as clear. Hardwoods are good.
I also used BU single iron Veritas planes for many years. Their performance, using a high cutting angle (62 degrees), is superb. The down side is that honing requires a guide, which I lack the patience for ( I am a freehand sharpener). Further, as with the high angle planes, one is limited to thinner shavings because blade penetration is less and the higher angle creates greater resistance.
But make no mistake, all these planes can produce superior performance. A double iron plane set up poorly will produce poor performance. There is less magic in the type of plane as there is in the hand that prepares and uses it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Why do I prefer double iron? Partly because they are BD, and the chipbreaker can control tearout with low bed angles. My Veritas Custom #4 smoother has a 42 degree frog, and my Custom #7 jointer has a 40 degree frog. Low cutting angles are easier to push, and bevel down blades have a lower bevel and are easier to hone.
I started off using high angle single iron planes. Either made them or used HNT Gordon. They work extremely well in the interlocked hardwood of Western Australia. The downside to high angles is that the blades will dull faster. They are less effective on softer woods, where the surface finish is not as clear. Hardwoods are good.
I also used BU single iron Veritas planes for many years. Their performance, using a high cutting angle (62 degrees), is superb. The down side is that honing requires a guide, which I lack the patience for ( I am a freehand sharpener). Further, as with the high angle planes, one is limited to thinner shavings because blade penetration is less and the higher angle creates greater resistance.
But make no mistake, all these planes can produce superior performance. A double iron plane set up poorly will produce poor performance. There is less magic in the type of plane as there is in the hand that prepares and uses it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
(I'm stuck on the couch with the flu today, thus the long posts).
There's nothing religious about them, of course. It's a mechanical solution to a mechanical problem. There is a real difference between the two, but there is also a real issue that the majority of people buying planes (which includes the 90% of woodworkers, etc, who don't get online and discuss woodworking) really aren't going to want to learn to use a double iron, and if they are just smoothing and shooting end grain, there's no real great need.
If someone gets further in than that and starts doing a substantial amount planes, it would be a shame to not learn from history that repeated itself across all geographies.
There is some resistance to that, I had the same resistance getting invested in learning what really makes a good single iron plane and spending about 150 hours making various single iron planes. Maybe more than that. Once I sold my jointer and started to dimension wood, though, it was clear that the single iron planes that I had were not going to be suitable for the task in anything less than agreeable wood. You bounce back and forth between two problems with them, either they are hard to push or they are slow to use. What you learn in dimensioning is more useful than just for dimensioning, though - useful, but not absolutely necessary.
I don't kid myself that many people do much hand dimensioning - especially stuff like thicknessing - so I don't think it's necessary for someone who likes BU planes or tight mouthed single iron planes to migrate to something else unless they get the bug to do more than light work. Initial success is certainly easier with them, and that is the market buying planes. There are exceptions to every rule - maybe some beginners can learn to set a cap iron quickly, and maybe some very experienced users prefer single iron planes. Circumstances probably dictate a lot of that. I just got a used infill a couple of weeks ago, it was set up buy a guy who was using it to plane guitar bodies. It wasn't set up very well, but guitar bodies aren't very big, so there wouldn't have been much for the guy to gain by needling away at efficiencies.
By the way, what are your thoughts on a 40 degree bed? That's getting to be right in the neighborhood of japanese planes, and I have a few of those still (but really should sell them). On hardwoods, I always feel like I'm right on the edge of the battle between clearance and durability.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Hello again
What I meant by asking that, was kinda multiple questions (sorry for not being clear)
I was kind of "zoned in" regarding back bevels and longevity .
I haven't made a shooting board yet ,and experienced what a double iron is like to work with regarding end grain .
(other than planing some absolutely ridiculous grain during dimensioning (flattening) a few bad iroko boards ) ...
So I can't comment on shooting performance but taking another pot shot at this ...
Hopefully I will not stir up anything by responding to my own question .
What should have asked was ..." WHY " did single iron plane making continue after the new technology of the double iron ?
Did they stick around just for shooting end grain ? ...If so there would obviously be longitudinal marks on the sides on a lot of those .
On these later woodies ... after double iron use, was common knowledge to a lot (pot shot assumption again)
Was the bed at 45 degrees ? ...
If it is common to find these, they must have being used for dimensioning or smoothing I suppose .
On to quoting my next error ...
I can't see that any cutting edge would not need refinement I'm afraid ....
I must admit I've never tried to plane a board straight off the washita even ...even though I was taking the comment
of the grinder as being a lot rougher, and all of my researching has convinced me to thinking that the edge lasts longer .
I have used a jet sharpening machine though, without using the strop and did not notice a quickly dulling edge ....
although the backs of my irons are like mirrors ...and that was some time ago .
Thanks Bugbear
I did not know about the scrub plane being bedded at 40 degrees either ...
That would nearly kick me off again with the theory of the scrub plane possibly being intended to have a back bevel :roll:
I wonder if there's others that think the back bevel could have superior wear resistance ....
Maybe in the axe or the knife world ...
Although I understand that there's a lot of other things that would have to be taken into account
regarding the use of these tools, and any variable would make it non comparable .
Thanks for your input folks .
Tom
What I meant by asking that, was kinda multiple questions (sorry for not being clear)
I was kind of "zoned in" regarding back bevels and longevity .
I haven't made a shooting board yet ,and experienced what a double iron is like to work with regarding end grain .
(other than planing some absolutely ridiculous grain during dimensioning (flattening) a few bad iroko boards ) ...
So I can't comment on shooting performance but taking another pot shot at this ...
Hopefully I will not stir up anything by responding to my own question .
Ttrees":3op4pzlb said:
What should have asked was ..." WHY " did single iron plane making continue after the new technology of the double iron ?
Did they stick around just for shooting end grain ? ...If so there would obviously be longitudinal marks on the sides on a lot of those .
On these later woodies ... after double iron use, was common knowledge to a lot (pot shot assumption again)
Was the bed at 45 degrees ? ...
If it is common to find these, they must have being used for dimensioning or smoothing I suppose .
On to quoting my next error ...
I can't see that any cutting edge would not need refinement I'm afraid ....
I must admit I've never tried to plane a board straight off the washita even ...even though I was taking the comment
of the grinder as being a lot rougher, and all of my researching has convinced me to thinking that the edge lasts longer .
I have used a jet sharpening machine though, without using the strop and did not notice a quickly dulling edge ....
although the backs of my irons are like mirrors ...and that was some time ago .
Thanks Bugbear
I did not know about the scrub plane being bedded at 40 degrees either ...
That would nearly kick me off again with the theory of the scrub plane possibly being intended to have a back bevel :roll:
I wonder if there's others that think the back bevel could have superior wear resistance ....
Maybe in the axe or the knife world ...
Although I understand that there's a lot of other things that would have to be taken into account
regarding the use of these tools, and any variable would make it non comparable .
Thanks for your input folks .
Tom
bugbear
Established Member
Ttrees":178ofk3a said:
Not all scrub planes - but some.
BugBear
Ttrees":2fjnksx4 said:
Double bevel is great for carving tools, axes, knives, etc.
I think single iron planes were offered (speaking of bench planes) for an overlapping period here (don't know about England) in good quality and then just went to second and third line planes after that, though I don't know who bought them because they are exceedingly rare here in antique shops while planes of all quality levels (the late ohio/auburn/sandusky planes can be pretty crappy - some are OK, but some are just made too quickly - I guess the same can be said for late marples).
Can't comment much on the scrub as I've only seen what LN says they were designed for, I had a few various makes over the years and always migrated back to a metal jack and then a wooden one.
At any rate, I just raided some antique shops this weekend where my parents live (center of pennsylvania, which is an old area for the states where people have been for 250-300 years and never threw anything away). Lots of crappy planes, a couple of decent ones, but no single iron planes of any age seen anywhere.
My original maker single iron jointer is a maker JT Brown, early 1800s. It is a nice plane, but it is easily left in the dust by every double iron plane that I have once those are brought back to no-clog condition. It's primarily the plane that pushed me to double irons - it's quite nice and it was unused when I got it. Bedded at 50, it has to be sharpened twice as often or more vs. my double iron planes, and it experiences moderate tearout on just about anything not downhill despite having a fresh new and tight mouth.
(or to answer it in a shorter answer, other than special purpose planes, I think the single iron planes after 1850 or so were made here as low cost alternatives, and were not very popular. Any bench plane design that came along in casted version but that didn't have a cap iron sold almost none, and all of them are hard to find in junk shops here).
swagman":2nwkvx5g said:
i missed this. there is none of either in it. The history is clear, and it comes from a time when people were struggling for any kind of economic edge for purposes of survival and not wealth.
Maybe you can elaborate which part of it seems to have bias, and what the conflicting historical evidence would be. Sort of playing the todd hughes card on some of it. Todd didn't use the planes, but he blacksmithed parts (among other things) and suspected larry was a bit off with a lot of his arguments. He only had to look at economics to prove Larry wrong.
swagman
Established Member
bridger":2g6cupak said:
Then it makes little sense to warrant a 5* clearance. imo
swagman
Established Member
Then logically; if your having to sharpen a single iron bedded at 50* bed twice as often as a double iron plane bedded at a common angle of 45* (assumption only as you haven't stipulated), the fault is not likely within the extra 5 degree's of approach angle, but the difference in wear characteristics of the single iron.
