Difference between block and timber frame

[disco_monkey79]

Bearing in mind I know nothing about anything - aren't fire regs also an issue with "alternative" building methods? I understand that a green oak frame meets fire regs, but would all timber?

 

[MikeG.]

Bearing in mind I know nothing about anything - aren't fire regs also an issue with "alternative" building methods? I understand that a green oak frame meets fire regs, but would all timber?

Not automatically, but very, very easily.

Mike

 

[big soft moose]

I have done a number of successful straw bale buildings, and they would make a wonderful home........it's just that you are losing an awful lot of expensive land within the thickness of those walls. When you've paid a quarter of a million for your site alone most people want to get as much house as they can for their money.

.

thats a good point and one thats very pertinent to me as we will not have 250 thou to spend on land (in fact we are hoping to get the whole build in under that)

other thoughts that have tripped throgh my mind are timber frame with sips panels or tiimber frame with thermafleece insulation panels.

i understand where your coming from with the internal blockwork but i am hoping to stay away from that for reasons of cost and time.

 

[MikeG.]

An alternative, then, might be a double stud construction.............an inner and an outer timber frame. You can easily get 300mm of insulation in your walls that way.

Mike

 

[wobblycogs]

This thread seems to have meandered rather nicely towards something I'm really interested in - building an eco home... cool

I would love to build an eco friendly home. My thinking has been along the lines of: use concrete and bricks on the inside to give a good thermal mass and a feeling of solidity and then super insulate the outside.

I realize that concrete has a serious CO2 footprint but I would be aiming to build a house that would last at least several hundred years. Having said that old tyres and rammed earth do rather appeal. My ideal place would require no heating and would generate it's own electricity (hopefully enough to recoupe the CO2 produced building it).

'Tis a dream though I think as I'll never be rich enough to buy a plot of land I'd consider building on in the UK.

And if anyone ever doubts the effectiveness of even a little insulation come stay with me for a couple of days over winter. I live in a solid masonary house with single glazed windows and it's a nightmare to heat.

 

[JoinerySolutions]

One reason Green Oak Framing meets the fire regs is due to the size of the timbers, fire will char the outside thus preventing oxygen fro the fresh timber to aid combustion.
As Mike says 'normal' timber frame can meet the regs with a double layer of plasterboard internally and a brick/block skin externally. External timber can be treated against fire too. I am a big fan of all timber builds, my old house in Milton Keynes was timber frame and very warm compared to the then outlaws brick and block one.
I am currently pricing an oak barn rebuild that collapsed due to poor maintenance and an exceptionally high wind. Conservation will be overseeing what is done but I find the project both exciting and challenging with the added thrill of talking the thatcher let me assist/learn a bit of his craft. :wink:
ATB Rob.

 

[MikeG.]

And if anyone ever doubts the effectiveness of even a little insulation come stay with me for a couple of days over winter. I live in a solid masonary house with single glazed windows and it's a nightmare to heat.

......or come and visit me. My heating hasn't come on yet this autumn (it was last on in March), and the house is still at 21.6 degrees. I expect it will cost about £60 or £70 to heat the house for the year, given the high price of oil.

For all those with dreams of building an eco-home (god, how I hate that term!).........far and away the most difficult part is finding the piece of land in the first place. Everything after that is quite straight forward.

Mike

 

[crazylilting]

Mike, i agree i am opinionated and while i don't want to be dismissive it is better then disagreeing, or at least so it seems. When i ask for clarification on certain practices that go against my schooling and 25 years in the construction industry I automatically assume that it is something to do with the UK climate or that someone has their facts wrong and would rather not step on someone's toes.

You are right that Canada has a lot to offer in the way of housing, i've taken a lot of training in quality 2000 and other such training programs and worked in all aspects of the construction trade with two journeymen tickets as well as several other time served trades in heating/mechanical and plumbing.

As far as not realizing that there was much in the way of timber framed houses I can only attribute this to the area i live in i suppose. I have never seen a timber framed house since moving to the Uk and every house i have been in to either do a quote or do some work has left me with a very dim view of work practices and procedures.

I like your idea of using timber frame on the outside and stone work on the inside. Their was a fella in the US that was building such houses in the new england area using slip form concrete and stone back in the seventies. I've also seen a house called the rexdale house, if memory serves me correctly, that that is built in layers of frame work and foil that yielded surprising thermal properties that didn't catch on. The thing with the Uk is that the temperature doesn't get as cold as Canada so BTU losses are substantially less then homes in Canada, building a canadian spec house here wouldn't need much in the way of heating at all. light bulbs and body heat would take care of most of your needs. Canadian houses are also air tight which would lead to house sickness here without the proper mechanical air exchange or opening windows.

My favorite building to date other then the look of them is the earthship. I almost built one but lost the land in a divorce, so dreams were dashes.

If i sound harsh it isn't intended, even if i disagree with someone. I however, appoligise to anyone i may of slighted unintentionally.

 

[MikeG.]

My favorite building to date other then the look of them is the earthship

For those not familiar with these, Earthships are a product of 1970's counter-culture in California, New Mexico, Arizona etc, and are permanent buildings made from waste materials.

The waste that has become most associated with them is old car tyres, but they also used bottles, old drinks cans, bits of cars etc. Rather easier to do in the climate from whence they came......I am about to design one in the Orkneys!! Achieving Building Regs approval for something built out of car tyres, and then earth-bermed, is going to be a nice little challenge.

Actually, CL, they can look like anything you want them to look like. You could actually do an earthship to look like a cute thatched cottage.........However, the sort of people who love these buildings also want to make a statement about not being part of the mainstream of society.

Going back to the original question again: Crazylilting, I believe that you may not recognise timber framed construction here when you see it, as they are normally indistinguishable (from the outside) from any other brick house. The technique got a really bad name in the 70's when some awful site practices and design led to some complete structural failure of relatively new buildings. It took 10 or 15 years for confidence to return in the technique, but now it is flourishing (not least because of on-site skills shortages and tighter regulations on thermal performance). So whilst there isn't a large stock of modern timber frame buildings, they are going up all over the place.

Returning briefly to Canada. Many research projects have shown that a lot of the benefits of high levels of insulation have been lost because of the way people use their houses. Instead of keeping the houses warm (say 20 to 22 degrees), Canadians have found it easy and cheap to maintain their super-insulated houses at 25, 26 or 27 degrees, and can thus be seen walking around their homes in the middle of winter in shorts and tee shirts. One of my tasks over the years of involvement with low energy homes has been to allow them to be kept comfortable, but remove the option of over-heating them. Can't say I've got that completely cracked yet!!

Mike

 

[Triggaaar]

Read my earlier post on the advantages of a masonry skin inside insulation. My houses typically have 250mm of insulation in the walls.

Could you give me a detailed example of such a wall please Mike, so I can see how wide the final wall is. Sounds nice and cosy, but as you mentioned we don't like to give up any space when land is so expensive. I take it that the thermo blocks are no good for the inside, as they're too light, so do you just suggest bricks, or heavy concrete blocks?

Thanks

 

[MikeG.]

You only need about 50mm more than a normal brick and block wall, Triggaaar (which often have a 100mm cavity these days).

From inside to outside:
-c.20mm render & set
-100mm dense concrete blocks
-50 gap to inside of timber frame
-150 timber frame
-the above 200mm fully filled with insulation. I generally use Warmcel because it can be blown in afterwards from above.
-10 breathable sheathing board, such as Panelvent (Excel Industries)
-25 vertical battens
-c. 20/25 render (lime render ideally), or f/e boards

.........giving a total wall thickness of c. 375mm.

Mike

 

[Triggaaar]

Thanks Mike

In response to the original question, both timber and concrete have been used for thousands of years, and both can work. While quality timber buildings can last a long time, the oldest surviving buildings are made from stone, concrete etc, so before the days of well insulated homes they were a good choice where we had a better supply of stone and clay than wood. Although a lot of self builders now choose timber frame (not oak), brick and stone buildings are the norm here, and even when poorly built they can last for ages.

Isn't re-building wooden homes quite common in north america?

 

[crazylilting]

I agree that an earthship could look like anything in the sense that you are using recycled products to lower the carbon footprint of the building process and reducing the damage that these products further inflict on our environment. However to funny embrace the earthship concept it is about self sustainable housing.

Grey and black water recycling, growing one's own food, using passive and active solar systems to heat and provide electricity for it's inhabitants and rain harvesting and purification for drinking. These were incorporated into the design of the original concept. This is why they had the look they did.

I think that self sustainable homes is the way of the future myself, but this also requires a lifestyle change that many would find difficult to embrace. I'm excited about your plans to build a house of tyres and hope you can get through the process of planning permission. When i was working towards my project I secured several peices of property only have to sell them due to the reluctance of the governing approval bodies to pass such an idea. The last piece of property i acquired for the project was in a district where they were open to alternative building practices and had already given approval for two other similar projects, but due to a divorce i had to sell the property and give up on a life long dream.

Now I don't know that i'd even have the stamina to pound enough tyres to build a house, very unfortunate... So when we acquire the next door property we will probably end up with a straw bale house.

Your so right about how the canadian's heat their homes. I'm still struggling with the way houses are heated here in the UK and hope to acclimatize soon!!! The damp is worse then -40 temperatures that i'm used to.

 

[crazylilting]

Isn't re-building wooden homes quite common in north america?

While it is true that this happens it isn't because of timber framing it due to greed. People will buy a property with a small timber frame house on it and knock it down and build monster houses on them for profit, and they do that with timber frame or better termed stud or stick framed house.

Timber frame is more of a specialized house that usually is clad with Insulation sandwich boards that have drywall (plaster board) on one side and plywood on the other side. The timbers are usually exposed because of their beauty and structure.

While it is true that north American houses won't last centuries, house prices aren't high enough that a mortgage is taken out over several generations either. A well built house will last a couple hundred years though properly maintained. However the systems within them such as wiring and heating would not.

 

[dickm]

Pretty sure you are right about thermal mass, Mike. We have an all timber house (came on a lorry from Hedlund's in Sweden) with high insulation and heat recovery, and a total heat demand at 0C outside of about 4kW. But after the odd warm day (we do get the odd one up here in Aberdeenshire) it still feels as if it cools down faster than it would if there was a decent thermal mass to store the heat.
But then is there a problem with high thermal mass if you let it cool down, and then there is a sudden change in weather? I still remember the stone farmhouse we rented for a while near Lancaster, where if we'd been away for a few days and the weather had been first cold, then warm and wet, the condensation on the walls was enough to strip the wallpaper

Almost all new-builds up here are timber frame, but then clad with pseudo-stone or harled blockwork to keep the planners happy. We did have some problems with finance and insurance for the house, which is another why full timber building isn't popular.

 

[MikeG.]

But then is there a problem with high thermal mass if you let it cool down, and then there is a sudden change in weather?

Your fridge takes care of that problem for you in a well insulated high-thermal mass house. It produces enough heat to keep the place reasonable even if you go away for weeks. Add in decent passive solar design, and you have nothing to worry about.

I went away for 5 weeks over winter a few years back, leaving the house empty and unheated. When we got back it was about 17 degrees. Cool, but not too bad, and of course, back to normal by the following morning. If you left an ordinary house unattended through Jan/ Feb it would probably be about 6 or 8 degrees when you got back.

The whole point of high thermal mass is that it smoothes out the sudden weather changes.

Mike

 

[Digit]

One point I'd like to make about thermal mass etc is the use, where applicable, of wind breaks.
My plot is at the bottom of a glacial valley, and my first thoughts when my wife told me that I was gonna buy the place :lol: was 'frost hollow!'
And I was correct!
The place was only habitable by idiots when we bought it but our first expenditure was on trees. Lots of 'em.
Our first winter was spent chasing anything that wasn't nailed down and it took three years till our attempts at planting Hydrangeas survived the winter blasts, now we are barely aware of winds till we leave to go into town.

Roy

 

[MikeG.]

timber frame or better termed stud or stick framed house.

Timber frame is more of a specialized house that usually is clad with Insulation sandwich boards that have drywall (plaster board) on one side and plywood on the other side. The timbers are usually exposed because of their beauty and structure.

This distinction may be what led to some confusion, CL. We would call both of these Timber Framed......although specialists will understand "stick-built" and "post & beam" structure as 2 different things. Once again, we are divided by our common language!!

Mike

 

[TheTiddles]

My aunt is a "real estate" agent in Canada, which is like an estate agent here except you have to be qualified, bound by legally binding ethics codes and not a school drop-out.

She once explained to me about her "timber framed house with stone infill", I said in England we call that "a barn" :lol:

Aidan