Coronavirus

[MusicMan]

Yes, "you're allowed your own opinions but not your own facts".

 

[MikeG.]

........- some see the death toll as largely related to those who would anyway have soon died.........

A quarter of 16 to 49 year olds admitted to intensive care with Covid 19 have died. The average age of admittance to Intensive Care units is 60, and half those admitted die. The facts simply to not support the opinion that these people would have died soon anyway.

Source.

 

[sploo]

OK but I think that what we can all acknowledge is that there is a tendency in the real world for people to only cite the evidence which supports their case and not the bits which their case can't account for.

I'd see that more as a case of confirmation bias (for which the evidence cited could be entirely valid); as opposed to an opinion based on gut feel and predjudice.

Your hypothetical example is easily dealt with by producing the known and proven evidence about measles.

Unless that person really believes in the power of aubergines. After all, it's a vegetable, so it must be good for you right?

Point being: look at the damage caused by Wakefield's MMR scandal. The weight of evidence that can be produced to the contrary is overwhelming, but not only will it be dismissed by many, that evidence will often be seen as proof of a conspiracy by "the man" to hide the truth. Fortunately we've not seen too much of that related to Covid-19, but there have been a few wacky claims about it being an intentionally created bio-weapon. Tin foil hats do seem to survive, sadly.

But - to go on risky territory - consider the assertion that they all voted the way they did because of what was written on the bus. An easy assertion because it is impossible to prove, is highly unlikely to be true (the claim that they "all" were so influenced) and so on, yet it appears to be accepted as an irrefutable truth in some circles.

That's probably more topical (because it references the NHS), but I'd think of that more as a case of linking the product you're selling (be it yourself as a politician, a vote you want to win, or something you want people to buy) with something you know is seen positively by a majority of the population.

How many were swayed by that particular argument? I suspect no one knows, but I'd be amazed if it were zero.

I think we desperately need examples from another subject area. Perhaps creationism would be a good one as it does seem to fly in the face of the accepted evidence.

Don't go looking into "intelligent design" then... it may scare you!

(it's a field that's produced a lot of very plausible sounding evidence; albeit evidence that doesn't really work in the face of known science... but obviously that's not the point - it does it's job because it convinces many)

 

[Andy Kev.]

Sploo,

as for the "B" argument I too cannot believe that it was zero but I can't believe that it was all either. We will indeed never know.

I'm glad you raised intelligent design as it immediately puts us in safer waters. I find it endlessly amusing (as I would religion if it didn't lead to so many deaths in its name). The ID people even have very professionally produced magazines to make themselves look credible. Hilarious. Long may they continue because ultimately any harm they do is probably negligible in real world terms.

 

[sploo]

........- some see the death toll as largely related to those who would anyway have soon died.........

A quarter of 16 to 49 year olds admitted to intensive care with Covid 19 have died. The average age of admittance to Intensive Care units is 60, and half those admitted die. The facts simply to not support the opinion that these people would have died soon anyway.

Source.

Very interesting data. I haven't read it in enough detail to try to be able to pick out the deaths by age group vs those with co morbidity factors; but it is possible that many of those people who have died did already have other severe health problems?

 

[sploo]

Sploo,

as for the "B" argument I too cannot believe that it was zero but I can't believe that it was all either. We will indeed never know.

Absolutely; I think it's exceptionally unlikely that in any subject/argument 100% of the people who take one side share 100% of the reasons for taking that side, or that one single issue is 100% of the cause of their viewpoint.

I'm glad you raised intelligent design as it immediately puts us in safer waters. I find it endlessly amusing (as I would religion if it didn't lead to so many deaths in its name). The ID people even have very professionally produced magazines to make themselves look credible. Hilarious. Long may they continue because ultimately any harm they do is probably negligible in real world terms.

But do remember that those who believe in it would argue just as vociferously in favour as others argue for their favoured beliefs. It's only safer waters right here right now because you and I both agree; chuck someone into the mix who's a "believer" and I'm sure it'd get messy :wink:

 

[MikeG.]

.......Very interesting data. I haven't read it in enough detail to try to be able to pick out the deaths by age group vs those with co morbidity factors; but it is possible that many of those people who have died did already have other severe health problems?

Co-morbidity is covered in the figures. And no, a large number of the people wouldn't have died otherwise. Here the figures are analysedby a hospital doctor.

 

[sploo]

.......Very interesting data. I haven't read it in enough detail to try to be able to pick out the deaths by age group vs those with co morbidity factors; but it is possible that many of those people who have died did already have other severe health problems?

Co-morbidity is covered in the figures. And no, a large number of the people wouldn't have died otherwise. Here the figures are analysedby a hospital doctor.

That's a superb video; thank you. Well worth watching the whole thing (for anyone else that clicks on the link above).

Also rather sobering; given my wife is an NHS doctor, and seeing the same issues with lack of suitable PPE.

 

[MusicMan]

Sploo,

as for the "B" argument I too cannot believe that it was zero but I can't believe that it was all either. We will indeed never know.

I'm glad you raised intelligent design as it immediately puts us in safer waters. I find it endlessly amusing (as I would religion if it didn't lead to so many deaths in its name). The ID people even have very professionally produced magazines to make themselves look credible. Hilarious. Long may they continue because ultimately any harm they do is probably negligible in real world terms.

Bit of a thread drift, except for those who believe that coronavirus is a visitation for our sins such as gay marriage... But it can be bloody annoying in the real world. I once had a patent application rejected because the examiner (in the USA) cited the Journal of Intelligent Design. The invention was an X-ray optical lens inspired by the multilayer reflecting structure of the eye of the lobster (which does not itself work for X-rays). The examiner claimed it was not original because God invented it first. I kid you not. We did win the appeal and got it patented in the end, though.

 

[sploo]

Bit of a thread drift, except for those who believe that coronavirus is a visitation for our sins such as gay marriage... But it can be bloody annoying in the real world. I once had a patent application rejected because the examiner (in the USA) cited the Journal of Intelligent Design. The invention was an X-ray optical lens inspired by the multilayer reflecting structure of the eye of the lobster (which does not itself work for X-rays). The examiner claimed it was not original because God invented it first. I kid you not. We did win the appeal and got it patented in the end, though.

By his logic, surely God invented everything first; therefore there would be no point in patent applications, and therefore no point in his role :wink:

Anyway, I see your multilayer X-ray optical lens invention, and I raise you my invention of a too-small-for-my-lens camera filter that I stuck into the middle of a badly hacked bit of cardboard with some of my daughter's brightly coloured sticky tape; in order to jam it into the end of a lens hood. I'll... err... get my coat...

 

[MikeG.]

.........That's a superb video; thank you. Well worth watching the whole thing (for anyone else that clicks on the link above).......

There are 3 or 4 other good ones from him on Covid 19 that I recommend everyone should watch. I was following him for a while before the corona virus came along.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Sploo,

as for the "B" argument I too cannot believe that it was zero but I can't believe that it was all either. We will indeed never know.

I'm glad you raised intelligent design as it immediately puts us in safer waters. I find it endlessly amusing (as I would religion if it didn't lead to so many deaths in its name). The ID people even have very professionally produced magazines to make themselves look credible. Hilarious. Long may they continue because ultimately any harm they do is probably negligible in real world terms.

Bit of a thread drift, except for those who believe that coronavirus is a visitation for our sins such as gay marriage... But it can be bloody annoying in the real world. I once had a patent application rejected because the examiner (in the USA) cited the Journal of Intelligent Design. The invention was an X-ray optical lens inspired by the multilayer reflecting structure of the eye of the lobster (which does not itself work for X-rays). The examiner claimed it was not original because God invented it first. I kid you not. We did win the appeal and got it patented in the end, though.

A wonderful antidote to fundamentalist theological lunacy and indeed religion in general is the book God Is Not Great by the late Christopher Hitchens. In particular his account of the beginnings of Mormonism is so funny (and he tells it straight) that it is barely believable that that religion survives to this day.

 

[MikeG.]

.........the book God Is Not Great by the late Christopher Hitchens.........

Superb book. Shame we've only got Hitchens-lite left.

 

[transatlantic]

I don't know how people can be religous in times like these. It has to raise some questions ...

 

[Lons]

I said I was out of the thread but feel I need to post this as an example against the points made that "they are just doing their job".

My niece is a senior nurse in a London hospital, she has a 12 month old daughter and was working part time on a 3 day week but was asked a month ago if she would be willing to increase her hours and move into a front line position caring for C-19 patients. Her partner is a political journalist with the BBC and they allowed him some leeway to take time off and do some work from home so my niece has for the last 4 weeks been working long hours and a 6 day week in the full knowledge that she would almost certainly be infected but her decision, she's a dedicated nurse and wants to do all she can, yesterday she showed typical fever and cough symptoms and is now in isolation along with her family. At 34 she's lower risk but the risk is still very real and if that isn't typical of what many in the NHS are doing then I don't know what is!

On the other hand I collected an order from Tesco click and collect just before noon today and the 2 guys handling it were brilliant, helpful, smiling despite it seems not having had even a minute break or a coffee since 7.30 am due to the constant queue of customers.

 

[Droogs]

Sadly just saw that a 12 year old girl has had her death attributed to Covid 19, don't know if she had any other probs

 

[MikeK]

A wonderful antidote to fundamentalist theological lunacy and indeed religion in general is the book God Is Not Great by the late Christopher Hitchens. In particular his account of the beginnings of Mormonism is so funny (and he tells it straight) that it is barely believable that that religion survives to this day.

Great book, as are his others. South Park had a very funny episode about Joseph Smith.

 

[beech1948]

Why have UK journalists not been following up properly re the C19 virus. Stupid and unquestioning and lacking any investigative prowess the Uk journo's need to be sacked and replaced.

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ3VOA76qQ

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU00nSQoJjU

I am coming round to believe that the UK should seek reparations from China for this Chinese cock-up and lies.

The UK needs an immediate Industrial Strategy to begin to replace the Chinese manufactureing which we have allowed to develop but which makes us weaker. We should stop buying Chinese stuff be it telecomms or even woodworking tools and build an indigenous industry and do it now.

China is essentially a parasitic nation taking from the rest of the world but delivering back the Corona Virus.

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so. I would say the same if China was replaced by the US or Russia.

The UK needs to respond to this as though it was a war and place the nation on a war footing to fight it.

 

[Droogs]

Apaart from the links taking you to a home DIY advert, when you find the vid on youtube it is just sensationalism on the part of an asian tv chanel. "We can confirm the virus was spread by human carriers" no poo Sherlock, that's how they spread. Just purille jurno's praying on the fears of the uneducated in India

 

[sploo]

Why have UK journalists...

There's so much wrong with that it's difficult to know where to start.

China is a populous nation with plentiful (and cheap) manufacturing resource. The only way to replicate those low costs here would be a bonfire of worker's rights and protections - not something that's likely to be all that welcome (or indeed, good for those workers).

Whatever your position on the morality of the conditions of Chinese factory workers, the idea that they are a parasitic nation doesn't make sense; they have businesses that supply products at a price the world is willing to pay. Nothing parasitic about that.