Chisel gets dull whilst working up through the grits

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This is getting off topic.

And most of the replies about sharpening didn't address the OP's question anyway.
Probably true.
To my inexpert mind, it could be that a slightly ragged edge from the coarser stone feels sharper. I guess it depends on how the OP is measuring the sharpness. I do know a bit about Sharpness, but that's hardly the same thing.
 
This is getting off topic.

And most of the replies about sharpening didn't address the OP's question anyway.

I did, completely, in my first post. Enough to determine if the issue was with the chisel or the sharpening. I guess it wasn't appreciated. The OP then applied a microbevel and solved his problems, which eliminated the potential edge finish issues or questioning whether the angle was steep enough or the steel was the problem.

Done.
 
Probably true.
To my inexpert mind, it could be that a slightly ragged edge from the coarser stone feels sharper. I guess it depends on how the OP is measuring the sharpness. I do know a bit about Sharpness, but that's hardly the same thing.

Interestingly, if you're testing knives, a knife slicing with a coarser edge will last longer in many of the tests, but it doesn't last as long with chisels or plane irons (or enter a cut as easily - we're kind of pushing things into a cut and most knife tests slice).

I found this (longer coarse edge) kind of shocking, but I guess it shouldn't be and it does a good job explaining why sharpening something and examining duration or failure doesn't mean sharpening something else with different use, steel, hardness, geometry will yield the same.

I'll leave sharpening carbide to the machinists.

A very good simple test of sharpness for planes is to take three irons of the same type, set them up with a 25 degree grind, a 33 degree microbevel and then plane the same edge of wood with them until each is dull, rotating each every 200 feet or so. I've done this several times and learned things I didn't expect to learn (at 33 degrees, most chipping stops except in very poor quality irons - at 30 degrees, there is chipping and no gain in longevity, usually - depends on the wood).

When you do a test of this type once you have a good sense of feel with steels, you suddenly notice effort differences and if it takes an hour to do this some lazy saturday afternoon, if you stick around and do any significant amount of hand work, it'll pay dividends indefinitely. You can gain back the effort improvement in a couple of sessions.

What I found is this (though others have found the same)
* stopping failure is necessary to get significant longevity - this always occurs somewhere between 30 and 35 degrees in chisels and plane irons (except perhaps for narrow mortise chisels)
* in plane irons, I started with 5 micron diamonds, then worked through various stones and ended with 1 micron diamonds. 5 micron diamonds planed 65% of the length of 1 micron diamonds, fine oilstones (both a fine washita and a black ark stone - the former is easier to finish an edge with and functionally similar in sharpness if it's not scuffed) go about 80-85% as long. Apparently, there is some duration gained above 1 micron, but I don't care - sharpening is more than two steps at that point and I'm out. The 1 micron finish only has to be at the very very tip of the tool and can be applied after a medium stone

I didn't go coarser than 5 micron diamonds, but they were loose fresh diamonds, and that's a very brash edge (like a 1500 diamond plate that's worn in). if you don't mind diamonds (autosol is fine if you do), the tip polishing replaces a strop and you're still sharpening a plane iron for about a minute and less for chisels. If you do the job right, you'll be sharpening wear and not edge damage.

I've run these tests, others have, etc (I mostly ran my long test to check how well irons live up to their claims of planing duration - most do reasonably well, except blue steel japanese irons match O1 at higher hardness, and A2 doesn't really gain much for its abrasion resistance as the duration over O1 (25%) is with a horrible edge condition, and it hates some natural stones).

The trick after testing these things one on top of another is figuring out how to do them without spending extra time or without much. That didn't turn out to be that difficult, but not separating setting up geometry and then just polishing the very tip of the tool creates the illusion that they will take a long time. One minute per plane iron for all of them - drastically reduced effort planing, drastically higher chance of finishing an edge, and no guide needed.

The results were not what I expected, but results are results. Knife slicing tests give us a good indicator of a steel's ability for longevity in wood as long as the steel is fine enough and has enough toughness and hardening potential, but slicing tests and edge coarseness don't match.

(I still don't use diamonds, but the results were consistent and stark - and squash some OWTs about natural stones creating longer lasting or sharper edges. They don't. It's OK that they don't - but difficult for some people - generally not on this forum - to admit that they prefer something that doesn't work better. Everyone wants their choice to be the best).
 
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I like the kitchen cabinets Dave, I'm assuming the design parameters had input from the wife.

No, she didn't like them -but that's my fault because I just ignored what she wanted. I wanted to redo the kitchen sort of simple-strip everything out, put it back in new bits and make a bigger long cabinet with more countertop on the opposite side (out of the picture) so that we could vent the HVAC behind and under the cabinet and not lose the space. She really wanted to gut the kitchen, remove walls and all kinds of things and it didn't make money sense. At the time I started, I wanted cherry cabinets - while I was making them, she relayed that she didn't like them but I powered through it. She picked the tin - it's the only thing that she's OK with.

Still a sore subject here, but we had just had a back room fitted out to be permanent (from a prior porch) and I was tired of spending money (and didn't want white cabinets - nothing against them, just didn't want white cabinets or something that isn't wood).

She calls the figure that's in some of the panels "dirt". "Nobody else has wood that still has dirt in it" :)
 
I've come late to this thread but can't see (in the first bit) what sort of chisels they are. I noticed, skimming some of the rest, that they didn't really hold up well even when initially sharp. Just wondering it the problem is the steel. That may have been covered somewhere but just thought I'd ask. Incidentally, for all the stuff I make as a humble hobby woodworker (clocks, guitars, various boxes etc etc), a honing guide, coarse diamond stone and a 6000 grit waterstone are all I ever use (that is all I have) and it gets things sharp enough to cleanly cut anything I have ever encountered - not talking about splitting atoms here, just a pragmatic, slice through wood scale with minimal chipping/tearout. Takes about a minute for a chisel. A couple of minutes for a plane and most of that is setting up afterwards. A bit longer for spokeshaves as I have a jig (bit of wood) for them otherwise I find them fiddly beggars. Once you have the hang of the system you happen to use (and they are many and varied apparently), sharpening (of flat edges at least) to this sort of pragmatic level is just part of the routine and a pretty simple process IMHO. For me...honing guide (essential for me), correct angle, a few passes on each sharpening medium, a couple of strokes on the back to remove any burr, wipe the tool/iron dry, carry on with the actual work...correct angle, sharp (enough) tools for nearly anything, no rust. Very occasionally, a re-grind to set the primary angle. Time to run for cover I guess.
 
I've come late to this thread but can't see (in the first bit) what sort of chisels they are. I noticed, skimming some of the rest, that they didn't really hold up well even when initially sharp. Just wondering it the problem is the steel. That may have been covered somewhere but just thought I'd ask. Incidentally, for all the stuff I make as a humble hobby woodworker (clocks, guitars, various boxes etc etc), a honing guide, coarse diamond stone and a 6000 grit waterstone are all I ever use (that is all I have) and it gets things sharp enough to cleanly cut anything I have ever encountered - not talking about splitting atoms here, just a pragmatic, slice through wood scale with minimal chipping/tearout. Takes about a minute for a chisel. A couple of minutes for a plane and most of that is setting up afterwards. A bit longer for spokeshaves as I have a jig (bit of wood) for them otherwise I find them fiddly beggars. Once you have the hang of the system you happen to use (and they are many and varied apparently), sharpening (of flat edges at least) to this sort of pragmatic level is just part of the routine and a pretty simple process IMHO. For me...honing guide (essential for me), correct angle, a few passes on each sharpening medium, a couple of strokes on the back to remove any burr, wipe the tool/iron dry, carry on with the actual work...correct angle, sharp (enough) tools for nearly anything, no rust. Very occasionally, a re-grind to set the primary angle. Time to run for cover I guess.

same thing was covered pretty early, but I tried to do it subtle (but then followed by saying do it before jacob gets here - that probably wasn't that subtle), but the point being let's solve issues of unfinished edges (method problem), poor geometry (method problem) or crumbling steel (poor chisel quality) at once.

All can happen - solving a problem rather than just swinging a hammer is a bridge too far, though. The OP went back and sharpened what was probably a combination of the first two and moved on.

But every sharpening thread is like the BP oil spill - the slick left behind lasts for a while. We just want a little oil from the well, but eventually it gets spilled and everyone forgets what the well was for in the first place.
 
I showed my 12 year old nephew this thread when it was at 3-4 pages (complete with the obligatory popcorn gif(y)) and explained they always end up in arguments.

He looked at me like I was ******* mental :)
 
If this one starts to get dull, register for a knife forum and leave a post in the main forum that says "hey, I'm new to the knife world, but I'm thinking about having a few dozen blades made and then selling knives professionally. What steel should I use".

:)

You will soon find that it's impossible to use certain steels in knives that you may have used for decades.
 
same thing was covered pretty early, but I tried to do it subtle (but then followed by saying do it before jacob gets here - that probably wasn't that subtle), but the point being let's solve issues of unfinished edges (method problem), poor geometry (method problem) or crumbling steel (poor chisel quality) at once.

All can happen - solving a problem rather than just swinging a hammer is a bridge too far, though. The OP went back and sharpened what was probably a combination of the first two and moved on.

But every sharpening thread is like the BP oil spill - the slick left behind lasts for a while. We just want a little oil from the well, but eventually it gets spilled and everyone forgets what the well was for in the first place.
OK, well, I'll keep quiet, guess we don't need any more sharpening threads. I think it was Halliburton that caused the oil spill wasn't it?
 
OK, well, I'll keep quiet, guess we don't need any more sharpening threads. I think it was Halliburton that caused the oil spill wasn't it?

I don't recall re: the BP spill.

Your post was on target, though - set the geometry and prep to finish the apex and then finish the apex. Guide leads to success for anyone who doesn't do it all the time. Legitimate or reasoned suggestions for sharpening or experimenting to get results are always lost among the "there's only one way to do it" or the "if you finish above 1000 grit, you're just wasting your time doing modern woodworking" and such things.
 
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