Chipped edges on new planes and do new planes need sharpening before use?

[Eshmiel]

I do understand the point you're trying to make Eshmiel.
But, I do consider the likes of planes and chisels as somewhat of an exception
to the rule.

But why are they an exception?

Lurker believes it's a way to force buyers to learn to sharpen because they'll have to eventually - a reasonable point but with an alternative: provide them first with a sharpened plane blade so they know what one should feel and work like; and put a Peter Sefton style DVD in the box (or a link to a Youtube vid) showing how to sharpen.

Should sellers supply lawnmowers with blunt blades to force the grass cutting customers to learn how to sharpen them when it becomes necessary?

*****
My suspicion is that many not-ready tools are sold that way to cut manufacturing costs, which is to enable a price reduction, which is to attract the naive into buying them as "it was cheaper than that other brand". Unless the manufacturer and seller make that crystal clear, I feel they are conning customers.

Moreover, this "not finishing it" manufacturer ploy can easily (does, in many cases) slip into: make it all substandard to cut costs and let the customers be the suckers who are not given an even break. Not true of Quangsheng planes and their purveyors but true of a vast range of other Tool Shaped Objects flogged in their thousands up and down the land.

Eshmiel.

 

[billw]

There is no point in having a ready to go plane as it just delays the need to learn how to fettle by 30 minutes use.
fancy tools are no substitute for ability.

I think this is my conclusion. Planes and chisels will at some point in the near future after using them, require sharpening, honing, changing bevel angles, whatever. What constitutes taking a thin shaving off one piece of timber might tear out another. How can a dealer possibly set something up for all possibilities?

The fact you have to take a tool and adjust it straight out of the box to do the specific job you need it for isn't much of a surprise, and learning how to set it up straight away should be part of the expectations - in fact the more expensive a tool is the more care I think should be taken about setting it up right!

 

[Daniel2]

Would you buy, and try to use a car, before learning to drive ?

As I have said, I agree whole heartedly with most of your analogies and examples, Eshmiel.
However, I do stick to the exceptions I noted.
BTW, a lawnmower blade is done once a year, if one is feeling generous.
And @billw added some other interesting arguments.

 

[shed9]

Planes and chisels will at some point in the near future after using them, require sharpening, honing, changing bevel angles, whatever.

This (and Lurkers point) pretty much sums the situation up? Even if every single plane on the planet arrived at the customer perfect and ready to cut the finest of shavings, it is only a matter of time before that need to sharpen, tune, hone and fettle is required. The whole argument is essentially about avoiding a requirement of which by the vary purpose of the tool itself can't be avoided.

Also as stated before now, someone wandering into Quangsheng territory most probably has a reason for upping the budget on a commonly available tool and as such more than likely knows more than the average tool purchaser. Not always but then the comment above makes that moot. I'd also throw Japanese chisels into the mix, how many people have been caught out finding they have to fit the hoop, handles or ferrules themselves; but yet again if your buying those tools, its fairly reasonable to assume some (even limited) internet homework.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I bought a new Scheppach bandsaw of the huge variety some 16 years ago from Kendal Tools. They delivered it, put it together, set it up and gave me a good lesson or three about how to keep it running well. They also offered the best price for it that I could find at the time and chucked in two free blades.

More money transferred from my wallet to the till of Kendal Tools as a consequence. If they had the item I wanted, I would go to them and no other. They offered a full and proper service rather than a crate of bits on a pallet delivered at the end of the drive for a £50 delivery charge and no help whatsoever in setting it up. (My experience of buying a huge and heavy belt sander from another more well-known tool seller).

Eshmiel

16 years ago.
(Incidentally that's where mine came from - I had to practically rebuild it before it was usable, even to the point of manufacturing replacement parts. Not that this was their fault, of course.)

 

[Blackswanwood]

What else would you buy that wasn't in a fit condition to be used without significant buyer work to make it functional?

Eshmiel

My wife feels she acquired me on this basis ...

 

[akirk]

As someone who has zero knowledge of these things, and is a definite beginner...
- I had no idea that in buying a plane it would need setting up / fettling...
- I bought an old Stanley 4 1/2 from ebay - a part of the blurb that attracted me was that it had been set up (and a chippy friend has tested it and said it is very good!)
- I bought a new Stanley block plane, and assumed that the ebay plane had only had to be set up as it was old / second hand, so I would be fine with the new one - I now know better!

point is - that when you start something like this, you will come from your own individual perspective - for me, I know that I don't know anything - hence I have been reading this forum / digging out online tutorials / etc. - which is partly how I learn something new (I would also go on a course if any were running!) but I can totally see that someone who has more experience of general DIY, who decides to do some woodworking, may buy a tool such as a plane without realising that it needs setting up - after all they may have a garage full of tools that you just buy and use... if they also have a basic understanding of how to use a plane (push along wood, shavings come off!) then there is little reason why they would go looking for instruction or clarification... and so misunderstandings can take place...

I think it is simply a matter of communication - in the same way in which there has recently been more clarity about power tools coming with a battery / charger, or without - and labelling them as 'bare' (used to be misleading on Amazon etc. as sellers used to show photos of the tools in operation, so it was assumed that a battery came with the tool), so it would be simple to label which tools need set up or are ready to use straight out of the box. It is easy to see where assumptions can come from on both sides (the buyer not realising / the seller assuming the buyer knows...) so something as simple as that information would cost no extra but would remove any misunderstanding...

I will now go and study how to set up planes!

 

[TheTiddles]

We are really off topic now but seeing as the topic is defined by a single letter, I guess we have some latitude...

I think the service being proposed is unlikely to be taken up as it presumes people are willing to pay for someone to do something they should know how to do themselves. That said I see people asking for who is good to repair a punctured bicycle tyre all the time, so they do exist.

I’ve always thought you can be arrogant if you are seriously good, or ignorant if you never want to get any better. But you can’t be both, or you will never amount to anything (as has been mentioned already). So if you buy new tools, take them apart and reassemble them incorrectly then get in a huff with the advice of people who know better, this extra service is ideal for you. The saying about a fool and their money being easily parted springs to mind

Aidan

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

No easy solution and we're talking about a very small percentage of purchasers of new tools. What lead Sebastian to this forum in the first place? Before purchasing the Woodriver plane, how much did he know about handplanes? Wht isn't he contributing to this discussion?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

This link takes you in in the middle for some reason, but go back to the beginning. People can always find fault with it but it's a very good guide even if you're try to set up a new plane.

 

[Eshmiel]

16 years ago.
(Incidentally that's where mine came from - I had to practically rebuild it before it was usable, even to the point of manufacturing replacement parts. Not that this was their fault, of course.)

Oh yes?

Eshmiel

 

[Eshmiel]

This (and Lurkers point) pretty much sums the situation up? Even if every single plane on the planet arrived at the customer perfect and ready to cut the finest of shavings, it is only a matter of time before that need to sharpen, tune, hone and fettle is required. The whole argument is essentially about avoiding a requirement of which by the vary purpose of the tool itself can't be avoided.

Also as stated before now, someone wandering into Quangsheng territory most probably has a reason for upping the budget on a commonly available tool and as such more than likely knows more than the average tool purchaser. Not always but then the comment above makes that moot. I'd also throw Japanese chisels into the mix, how many people have been caught out finding they have to fit the hoop, handles or ferrules themselves; but yet again if your buying those tools, its fairly reasonable to assume some (even limited) internet homework.

It's certainly the case that any woodworking tool will need maintenance; and the necessity of sharpening planes & chisels is unavoidable. Myself I'm coming 'round to Tony Z's point - perhaps the compromise would be for retailers to offer an additional service to initially set up a chisel or plane blade, for an extra charge, so that a newby could at least see how it works when made ready to work?

As various posters have pointed out, there is no single simple set up of a blade for all purposes so a retailer could offer not just to make a dull factory blade flat-backed and sharp but also cambered, with a certain cutting edge angle and so forth. Such a service might also include some paper or web-based lessons on how to do it and when/why. In fact, if you buy a Veritas edge tool, you'll find quite a lot of that kind of info with it on a small (sometimes large) leaflet or booklet; and the blades come sharp enough to use if not ideal for various special purposes.

But to sell an essentially non-working tool with no indication of how to get it working seems inappropriate in a market where a very large proportion of customers will be naive newbies. There is a responsibility of any tool owner to learn how to use aright - but perhaps the question is: what degree of responsibility does a tool seller have to enable, encourage and support that?

Many (perhaps most) tools have a user manual. Many of those user manuals are very comprehensive. I have a Veritas router table with a whole book devoted to it's set up and uses; and I once had a similar book that came with a Tormek. Most low and mid cost planes have no such manual. ......

******
At bottom, it seems unsurprising that the web is full of edge tool buyers complaining that their purchase doesn't perform the function they bought it for. Something about the selling process of those tools needs improving.

Eshmiel

 

[MikeK]

I'm entering this recent discussion late, but I don't think the manufacturer or retailer has any responsibility to ensure the buyer knows how to use the product being purchased. I have never been offered driving lessons when I bought a vehicle; although, I was always asked to show my driver's license. When I bought my Viking lawn mower from the distributor, the sales rep didn't ask if I knew how to use it or ask if I wanted help assembling it. He did have his son load the box in the back of my truck, but that was the end of his involvement with the mower. For what it's worth, I sharpen my mower blades at least three times a year. The spare blade I bought from the Viking distributor was not sharp out of the box, and even had a label on the box stating the blade required sharpening before use.

Without exception, all of the Lie Nielsen planes I bought over the past five years could not be used immediately after being unboxed. The tender mercies the postal clerks and mail transportation process bestowed upon the packages meant some items were loose, and sometimes completely separated (not broken) from each plane. I am confident that the planes were intact and ready for action when they were lovingly wrapped and packed at the factory, but it's a long journey from Maine to my house in Germany. Fortunately, I did not have any expectations that the planes would arrive without being jostled about and I didn't need to consult anyone to figure out how to put them back together.

The Number 1 and 5-1/2 LN planes I ordered last month arrived today and I will open the boxes later tonight. The main box doesn't rattle, so there might not be any separated pieces, but I'll find out later how well they survived the trip. If I'm not too tired after I finish the yard work, I'll take a few shavings from some oak or beech with the factory edge on the irons.

 

[Droogs]

MikeK, you've bought a #1 plane. Are you secretly running a child sweatshop

 

[akirk]

I'm entering this recent discussion late, but I don't think the manufacturer or retailer has any responsibility to ensure the buyer knows how to use the product being purchased...

Agree - we are adults who can take responsibility for our own actions... but...

The spare blade I bought from the Viking distributor was not sharp out of the box, and even had a label on the box stating the blade required sharpening before use...

this is a good example of communication giving clarity - takes little effort for manufacturer / reseller, and avoids doubt - also give the reseller less grief as people are under no false impression!

 

[billw]

this is a good example of communication giving clarity - takes little effort for manufacturer / reseller, and avoids doubt - also give the reseller less grief as people are under no false impression!

Go on - find a lawnmower forum where they consistently argue about the primary bevel angle of a mower blade. I dare you

 

[MikeK]

I forgot to mention...the blade that came with the mower wasn't sharp either. It was in the same type of box as the spare blade I bought separately and packed under the mower deck with the wheels. I have no idea what the average customer is supposed to do with the mower once it is home and assembled.

I exchange the blade when I notice the edges of the freshly cut grass are starting to tear instead of being cut. The torn edges turn brown and my neighbors point and laugh as they walk by.

 

[MikeK]

MikeK, you've bought a #1 plane. Are you secretly running a child sweatshop

Sweatshop sounds so negative. I prefer to call it a cottage industry.

 

[MikeG.]

I do appreciate the mods attempting to revive this thread by renaming it and putting an explanatory first post in place of what Seb left. Well done. I'm just not 100% sure that the new title reflects the contents, which was more about a chipped/ damaged iron rather than about whether or not it was sharp.

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks moderator for putting at least a little sense back into the early part of this thread.