Chipped edges on new planes and do new planes need sharpening before use?

[MikeG.]

.......Doesn't help the OP though!

You know, I'm not so sure.

I reckon he was taken aback by the responses he got, and he must have seen that he didn't actually know what he was doing with a plane. Now that he has one or two planes, and has had some time with a kindly forum member being shown sharpening and setting up, he'll perhaps realise that A/ helping someone isn't criticism, it's just help, and B/ that we were all saying the same thing....that he has some basic skills to learn. If he's honest with himself he knows this already. So a couple of weeks of up-and-down interaction with this forum may have given him a 5 year head start on the likes of me and others here, who had to work this stuff out for themselves.

Turns out he doesn't have a bench. Having been with someone who knows how to use a plane, he'll now understand the importance of having one. So, when he gets a new bench, he'll have some planes and the benefit of some guidance on sharpening and setting up.......all of which is a head start into hand tool woodworking that he wouldn't have had if he hadn't posted here. He may not have enjoyed the experience, but he'll benefit from it enormously, I reckon, even if he doesn't know it himself yet.

 

[akirk]

I think it does come down to youtube. Which, although it does open up learning for a lot of folks that would otherwise not have a way of doing it, provides no feedback when you are actually are on your own as a beginner you have no idea what is important and what isn't. And as been already mention if you want fast progress, which again youtube and the world seems to demand, then there is no substitute to having someone looking over you shoulder and going, wait...

Agree - and for someone like me - just starting out, it is a challenge to know where to turn to learn - there are no courses running due to Covid and youtube doesn't give that feedback - not sure whether you can hire in a personal trainer in woodwork but maybe that is the way forward?! I think that youtube is probably the only current option, but it will be a slower learning pace...

 

[MikeG.]

Be ware of youtube, though, because there are many more videos of people doing it wrong than there are of people doing it anywhere near right. You really are in the right place here, akirk, if you're seeking woodworking advice, and help in navigating youtube's pitfalls.

 

[akirk]

Be ware of youtube, though, because there are many videos of people doing it wrong than there are of people doing it anywhere near right. You really are in the right place here, akirk, if you're seeking woodworking advice, and help in navigating youtube's pitfalls.

It is tricky - but as you say, there is some good honest to the point advice on here which is hopefully guiding me...
at the moment I am spending time on Paul Sellers' websites - he seems to have respect from others, and has a lot of very good material from beginners - so I am hoping that time spent following his guidance will teach me the basics - not as good as finding someone to teach me, but that is not possible for now, so am doing what I can!

Interesting post from him in his blog today (about budgets):

Make a list of what you feel is indeed important. We can procrastinate and put off making because we feel we need to have a mass of power equipment, special hand tools, a designer workshop and some kind of over-massive workbench built from a seasoned hardwood. None of this is really true. The list should be headed with what do you want in becoming a woodworker? Nice tools, cleaned up repaired, restored and ready to go or a lineup from prestigious makers from around the globe that, well just need nothing to do to them. In my world, restoring a vintage Stanley #4 and 5 means immediate training in the workings and maintenance of bench planes. Strip them down and pout them together a few times and you will have it down in a heartbeat. Use the plane to work the wood and you will soon be tweaking the leavers and adjustments as though you were born with one in your hand. This then of course, goes for all the other tools. So you will see that it is not just that buying secondhand saves on cost but more that the tool becomes the vehicle through which you then learn about how the plane functions, how to handle it and how to mainain it which of course, includes its idiosyncracies.

Seems very appropriate to this whole thread!

 

[AJB Temple]

It's funny really as the OP started out in his first (deleted) thread seeking advice on a planer / thicknesser (for which there was no adequate power supply). I think he said he had been woodworking for a couple of years, so I guess many of just assumed he must have a bench = even if it's just an assembly table.

I suspect that many come to woodworking and think they need shiny new tools and machines. As we get older, unless we are in the trade (I am not) then probably we pare down what we actually use to a few favourite tools. I really don't care about new stuff now.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Half the problem is we don't always know what we don't know. Some people compound this by trying to give the impression they do know, when it is evident they don't.

Many moons ago I said to a friend that practice makes perfect. He said no, perfect practice makes perfect - it's no practicing something that's not right in the first place.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Agree - and for someone like me - just starting out, it is a challenge to know where to turn to learn - there are no courses running due to Covid and youtube doesn't give that feedback - not sure whether you can hire in a personal trainer in woodwork but maybe that is the way forward?! I think that youtube is probably the only current option, but it will be a slower learning pace...

I found David Charlesworth‘s DVDs to be extremely helpful as they are so precisely detailed. Mind you, you won’t go wrong with Mr Sellars. I‘d also recommend The Essential Woodworker book by Robert Wearing (see the reviews section above).

 

[akirk]

I found David Charlesworth‘s DVDs to be extremely helpful as they are so precisely detailed. Mind you, you won’t go wrong with Mr Sellars. I‘d also recommend The Essential Woodworker book by Robert Wearing (see the reviews section above).

Thank you - will look at those!

 

[MikeG.]

David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.

 

[AJB Temple]

Many moons ago I said to a friend that practice makes perfect. He said no, perfect practice makes perfect - it's no practicing something that's not right in the first place.

Indeed. Have studied classical piano for most of my life off and on. At one point I was studying for a performance diploma, and an excellent Russian concert pianist was my tutor. Evgenia Startseva. She was very strict (Russian musicians are all nuts - the good ones were in academies from aged about 4). Her view was that everything had to be perfect: notes and timing and expression (not necessarily tempo) right from the outset. She said that many people practice a lot and mostly they are practising their mistakes.

Perhaps this is why it takes some people thousands of hours to learn things (the 10,000 hours myth).

The really big lesson for me though was that however hard I tried I was never going to be as good as her!

 

[MikeK]

David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.

Probably true for the videos, but as a former student of David Charlesworth, I think a beginner would be just as comfortable attending one of his courses as would an advanced woodworker looking for a new perspective or refresher. His courses are not a "gentleman's course", and fastidious note taking is required, at least for me. I was fortunate to be his only student for two courses last year (Tool Tuning and Dovetailing) and one of two students for the other two courses earlier this year (Mortise & Tenon and Drawer Making).

I had never made a dovetail joint, mortise, tenon, or drawer prior to taking David's courses. I am very pleased with the quality of training I received and the output of my efforts. I am also confident that the rate of my progress would not be the same only by watching videos or reading books.

For the Tool Tuning course, I told David to assume I knew nothing other than which direction the pointy end goes most of the time. He obliged me and the first of five days was spent in lecture and demonstration of the structure of the various planes and chisels. The second day was the start of turning my "ready to use" LN planes and chisels into finely tuned instruments.

I looked for similar courses elsewhere, but did not find any that would be economical for me since I would be shipping my tools and flying back and forth. One day I'll total up the cost of the four courses, but it won't matter because the money was well spent and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

 

[Eshmiel]

David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.

David Charlesworth does not over complicate things - he explains carefully, in detail and with great clarity many of the reasons behind the processes that some just copy and use with little intelligence. He is a fine antidote to many of the prattling over-excited Youtube "gurus" who are more concerned with their personal image than with the substance of the information they're supposedly imparting.

Mr C does not assume that newbies coming to learn somehow already know 90% of what he knows. He understands that many will find even the simplest of plane-fettling things mysterious and unfamiliar at first. Mr Sellars and some others have a tendency to suggest that it's all ever so easy because "look how easily I do it". That's a serious failure of empathy.

************
Perhaps this website already has lots of sharpening info? Nevertheless, here are a couple of links worth looking at. They're free and informed information about sharpening. Some are quite long and detailed, which indicates that the business of sharpening is not as simple and easy as some would have it. There are many other such sources of sharpening information. In general, a written document with lots of diagrams is far more informative than a 15 minute video, half of which is nothing but a demo of the "personality" doing his thing.

https://www.fine-tools.com/sharpening-chisel-and-plane-blades.html
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/index.html
Myself I learnt a great deal from Derek Cohen and David Charlesworth when first starting out. I have the Charlesworth books which I found sufficient without the need for a course or DVD. I learnt many other bits and bobs through attendance at forums such as this. Just lately I learnt that unicorn - another worthy improvement to a long history of learnt additions about sharpening from investigators happy to impart what they've learnt from their careful experiments and practice.

There are differences in sharpening techniques and configurations. Myself I have come to like the back bevel as well as the micro-bevel. Derek Cohen is not so much in favour and uses the hollow grind from a wheel as the basis of his further honing, for example. Many different techniques and configurations can produce "sharp". There are different kinds of sharpness, though; and different ways to get to them.

None of them are as simple as waving the blade at an oilstone "like I was taught 40 years ago by some old curmudgeon". (My own least favourite variety of sharpening advice).

Eshmiel

 

[Andy Kev.]

David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.

I know exactly why you suggest that he overcomplicates things but I beg to differ.

In my opinion what he does is to take every action which a woodworker needs to do to get precise results. Because he is committing it to DVD this means that the films give the initial impression that the work proceeds more slowly than it does in real life. I have found that what actually happens is that one puts his teaching points into practice carefully at first and then one speeds up as competence increases. Secondly, experience teaches when you do not need to do all that he says: for instance one side of a board may need Charlesworthian attention to detail whereas the other just has to look good.

I bought his DVD on chisel techniques when I was about six weeks into woodworking and that resulted in a literally overnight transformation from utter rubbish to acceptable. With further practice and occasional revisits to the DVDs I got up to around competent. That's why I would recommend them.

 

[MikeG.]

I said for a beginner, and obviously, I'm talking about his videos because I've not been on a course. Any course.

As it happens, I am tutoring a beginner, and he certainly gets more from Sellers' videos than form DC's, at this stage of his development. After a bit more experience, I'm sure he'll get a lot from DC, who, as I said, is wonderful. I just don't happen to think he paces it right for a beginner, and that there is a danger of giving people too much information on day one of a life-long skill-building experience. Andy and Mike have views that vary from this, and that's fine.

 

[Bacms]

It's funny really as the OP started out in his first (deleted) thread seeking advice on a planer/thicknesser (for which there was no adequate power supply). I think he said he had been woodworking for a couple of years, so I guess many of just assumed he must have a bench = even if it's just an assembly table.

I suspect that many come to woodworking and think they need shiny new tools and machines. As we get older, unless we are in the trade (I am not) then probably we pare down what we actually use to a few favourite tools. I really don't care about new stuff now.

It is funny you mention that and I am not sure that keeping mention the OP does any good at this stage. But, he did mention he had previously built stuff with plywood but he had recently bought a new house and was hoping to build an entire house of furniture for it instead of spending money on cheap/Ikea furniture. However, he was in shock at the investment he would have to make to buy to even be able to buy anything as he seemed to truly believe you need a workshop full of machinery as was either in the process or had just bought quite a lot of it.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Spent today showing my new full time students grinding and chisel preparation techniques, tomorrow onto planes sharpening and set up. I used to run a two day sharpening courses but prefer running courses that include sharpening and tool use within a project setting, I feel these skills go hand in hand. We are running on reduced numbers and a reduced timetable to look after our staff and students as much as possible in the current climate. I have a couple of You tube videos out there and spent a couple of Summers filming videos covering a lot of these techniques in detail, I was working with Artisan Media who worked with Paul Sellers in the early years and David Charlesworth more recently. My videos are available on our website and Amazon, sorry can't give them away Paul, David and I all use different sharpening techniques and I tried to show a range of stones, guides and blades to cover as many bases as possible. I think there is lots of good information out there including a range of videos on You Tube from Rob Cosman who has been involved with the development of the WoodRiver plane range. Our WoodRiver plane customers get a free subscription the Rob Cosman's online tutorials to assist them in their own workshops, here is one of Rob's videos on WoodRiver setup.
We have had just about every plane brand through the workshops over the past 11 years, all of which can be improved out of the box (or ruined) Skill takes time and practice to build.
This video should help new plane users


Cheers Peter

 

[Ttrees]

I'm curious Peter, since you are adamant to be comprehensive, are you having any thoughts on providing a bench for sale, maybe something like what Cosman is supplying to the veterans?
That's all that was missing from the equation...
Sounds expensive to achieve, but impossible?

I think no-one's video's compare to Charlesworth's precision planing video.
I can't remember which one, but I believe he has made new ones.
This one was from an exibition that I watched, and he asked the folks there for guesses as to how much of a dip he intentionally removed.
A great help this video was, and to this day, I've never seen anything that came remotely close.
Charlesworth will make you understand, can describe things with such clarity, better than if you were someone else, in person.
Honesty over some sort of showmanship illusion is important,
and I see a lot of "get her done" kind of stuff from other folks which will lead to errors aplenty.

All the best
Tom

 

[billw]

I have to say I learn better by doing than watching which is why I suspect I'll end up doing a year-long course in 2021 rather than being glued to YouTube. Learning things here has the benefit/cost (delete as appropriate) of having many varying views and opinions - I'd tick the benefit column personally but others may find it confusing and contradictory.

 

[Ttrees]

The heels and toes of all mine are rounded off, but I seem to remember the wisdom of taking the corners off the sides being open to debate.

Yep I would be one in that category, and think that video is the pits.
The first problem is the lap.
The lap must be smaller than the area of the item being worked in question, this is crucial if you wish to lap a longer plane to flatten it and not just polish it.

My next issue is referring to that "tip" that he suggests.
If one want's to know how use a double iron plane like a Bailey well,
for any timber they may encounter.
That approach of working the long edges of the plane,
especially if one had fancy abrasive, may well lead to the same
outcome as with an iron with a concave grind on a plane would.
So I suggest figuring out what that's like, if you want to know, as its a lot less effort to fix a profile on an iron, than to fix a profile on a plane sole.

Just felt I should mention this in-case the owner of that bargain Bedrock decides to try it.
Important on that particular plane for instance.

Tom

 

[TheTiddles]

Many moons ago I said to a friend that practice makes perfect. He said no, perfect practice makes perfect - it's no practicing something that's not right in the first place.

My dad said something similar, you learn from your mistakes and practice makes perfect... one of those has to be wrong!

In my professional capacity, it is astonishing how many people use the defence “We’ve always done it that way” without ever considering that perhaps... they’ve always done it wrong!