Chipped edges on new planes and do new planes need sharpening before use?

[billw]

In my professional capacity, it is astonishing how many people use the defence “We’ve always done it that way” without ever considering that perhaps... they’ve always done it wrong!

Or even why they've done it at all!

 

[Trevanion]

You can also have pretty rubbish tutors/mentors that can hinder your progress more than help it, to quote AJB:

Half the problem is we don't always know what we don't know. Some people compound this by trying to give the impression they do know, when it is evident they don't.

This can also apply to the people around you that attempt to educate you, it's hard for a complete beginner to differentiate between someone who humbly has decades of hard-earned experience or some braggart who thinks he knows everything about what he's doing despite only having ten minutes of playing about. It's easy for someone for a bit of knowledge to spot the Dunnock amungst the Sparrows but for your average everyday punter "It's just a bird like any other" which they'd be wrong because the Dunnock is definitely the most interesting one there by far.

I like old books written by the absolute masters of their craft, some of the most precious information I have has been gleaned from old books that would've been snubbed as outdated and irrelevant. For example, comparing a spindle moulder nowadays and one a hundred years ago is still very much at its core the same machine but for some reason they knew how to make them work better a hundred years ago than most people can make them work now, that's down to information that has been lost through the generations of machinists, either by those not willing to teach or those not willing to learn.

"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men’s writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have laboured hard for" - Socrates

 

[bjm]

I think it's a reasoned strategy on behalf of the manufacturers - if the blade WAS sharp out-of-the-box, for most woodworkers it wouldn't be sharp enough - so why bother!!

 

[Cabinetman]

Back bevel? Microbevel? camber? Obviously I am ignorant. Yes my plane is tuned, it’s the original Stanley Bailey number 4 that I went to Teacher training college with when I was 19. I have changed the cap Iron for something a little stiffer, but I have never thought (and I do know what I’m looking at) that my work could be much improved, I very rarely use abrasive papers, the finish from a sharp plane shines, why scratch the surface?
I think what I’m trying to say is that you can overthink these things, what more do you need? A sharp plane and the whistle as it takes a few microns thick shaving across end grain says it all, no, and I’ve never used a shooting board either.
I feel sure a lot of this is to imbue a mystique to what we do, whether that’s to make them feel better/superior or just to sell us more shiny things I don’t know, my LN plane is still sat on my bench covered in dust, just couldn’t get on with it at all.
Some of our American cousins have got this bad, I get Pinterest feeds through occasionally and they seem to collect planes by the dozen, whether any of them ever actually get used I sometimes wonder.
I’m sorry I’m rambling, but I don’t find woodwork/cabinetmaking too difficult, it’s just a few simple rules, accurate marking out and sharp tools. Some equipment to take a lot of the hard work out helps I suppose.
Ian

 

[Jackbequick]

Tis, a nice idea that chisels, and planes be sharp out of the box, be it dealer or manufacturers sharpening.
What happens, as in this case, the new owner trys to do the impossible with the tool.
The number of planes I've seen where it has clearly been used to try to plane down a painted door, with a nail hidden under the paint. Makes me wonder how many electric planes are sitting in land-fill for the want of new blades.

Bod.

The 'sharp at purchase idea seems good...but its possibly caution that prevents it. I have to sharpen all tools after purchase however as an OHSE 'type' I think that not having blades sharpened to 'really good edge' at the store may actually prevent some injuries when people thumb test the blade edge. This would be a cause of action against the maker/importer. That may sound 'come off it'....but precaution whether as a principle or a personal decision has a value. The origin of the actions are in Donaghue Vs Stevenson, and though later altered owing to his quoting the 'Bible' for it... Lord Atkin on 'neighbourliness' is an important mindset.

I say that possibility of not sharpening to fine edge understanding also that probably many people have no ability at sharpening or knowing when 'sharp' has become SHARP without the thumb test. Nevertheless used tools blunt and sharpening is important. Interestingly some serious injuries comefromblunt tools...like a screwdriver which when 'blunt' is actually sharp.

Those razor sharp knives flogged in TV advertisements... ...I wonder how many injuries from them...My son knocked the large one off a bench...it embedded in his foot and required 5 stitches...yep, he had sneakers 'on' and a steel cap would not have protected him on the bridge of his foot. Makes me shudder just thinking about it!

 

[Eshmiel]

Back bevel? Microbevel? camber? Obviously I am ignorant. Yes my plane is tuned, it’s the original Stanley Bailey number 4 that I went to Teacher training college with when I was 19. I have changed the cap Iron for something a little stiffer, but I have never thought (and I do know what I’m looking at) that my work could be much improved, I very rarely use abrasive papers, the finish from a sharp plane shines, why scratch the surface?

If you have no blade camber on your smoothing plane how do you avoid having to sand off the plane tracks left by the corners of a straight edge?

Do you think that a sanded surface can be distinguished from an only-planed surface once the finish has gone on (assuming no plane tracks become visible and that the sanding was to the grit grade appropriate for the wood)?

Why boast about being ignorant of something and then comment on it?

I think what I’m trying to say is that you can overthink these things, what more do you need? A sharp plane and the whistle as it takes a few microns thick shaving across end grain says it all, no, and I’ve never used a shooting board either.
I feel sure a lot of this is to imbue a mystique to what we do, whether that’s to make them feel better/superior or just to sell us more shiny things I don’t know, my LN plane is still sat on my bench covered in dust, just couldn’t get on with it at all.

Ha ha - what a hodge-podge of illogic! And that "overthinking" thing (a good excuse for not thinking at all).

You can't get on with an LN .... unlike 99.9% of the other users so it must be the plane. Could this just be the ignorance you boast of? You are ignorant of blade cambers, back bevels et al so you assume that such stuff is all made up just to try to get money out of you somehow. The rest of us have been fooled and these cambery back bevelly things are useless despite thousands of others finding them rather useful. The tens of thousands that have used such configurations for some centuries now are all fools.

And you can't use a shooting board and are proud of that too!

Oh dear.

(snip)

I’m sorry I’m rambling, but I don’t find woodwork/cabinetmaking too difficult, it’s just a few simple rules, accurate marking out and sharp tools. Some equipment to take a lot of the hard work out helps I suppose.
Ian

Rambling? I begin to suspect you are just extracting the micturate and casting out some chum for we small fishes to bite at. Naughty.

Eshmiel

 

[Eshmiel]

The 'sharp at purchase idea seems good...but its possibly caution that prevents it. I have to sharpen all tools after purchase however as an OHSE 'type' I think that not having blades sharpened to 'really good edge' at the store may actually prevent some injuries when people thumb test the blade edge. This would be a cause of action against the maker/importer. That may sound 'come off it'....but precaution whether as a principle or a personal decision has a value. The origin of the actions are in Donaghue Vs Stevenson, and though later altered owing to his quoting the 'Bible' for it... Lord Atkin on 'neighbourliness' is an important mindset.

I say that possibility of not sharpening to fine edge understanding also that probably many people have no ability at sharpening or knowing when 'sharp' has become SHARP without the thumb test. Nevertheless used tools blunt and sharpening is important. Interestingly some serious injuries comefromblunt tools...like a screwdriver which when 'blunt' is actually sharp.

Those razor sharp knives flogged in TV advertisements... ...I wonder how many injuries from them...My son knocked the large one off a bench...it embedded in his foot and required 5 stitches...yep, he had sneakers 'on' and a steel cap would not have protected him on the bridge of his foot. Makes me shudder just thinking about it!

Hmmmm - yes, you may be right. In future I will be buying car and bicycle that does not go, as speed kills! Also, I will switch all the electric off to the electrical items at the mains. Electrocution is always a possibility - but not if there's no lecky in the wire. ....

Perhaps we should all lock up the shed forever - mine's full of sharp and pointy stuff. 11 screwdrivers at the last count!

I wonder where I can buy a soft and coddling cocoon? But hang on! Those cocoons can probably suffocate a lad if the breathing pipe gets blocked so .............

Perhaps the best strategy is to huddle in bed and never get out. I believe this is practiced to a great degree by the youth of a certain country when the pains of social intercourse become too many.

Eshmiel

 

[AJB Temple]

I said a while ago that I have never used the ignore function and cannot see the use for it. The light is beginning to dawn.

 

[Gary_S]

I suspect that whatever degree of sharpness the planes and chisels come with, most of this community would devote time and effort to fettle. There are many ways that people sharpen and prepare blades and many different preferences for angles, secondary micro bevels etc that at the end of the day are used by each of us to get the tools into a condition where we use them with confidence.

There are many reachers of the craft who espouse different methods and teach them in books, in person training classes and on Youtube. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is difficult at first but as we progress in our use of tools, we subscribe to the philosophies of a few teachers and channels. Sometime for their skill at woodwork, sometimes for their skill at teaching and sometimes for their ability to entertain while they teach.

I myself am a dabbler who needs to spend more time in my workshop with my sons who are far better than I am. We teach each other, one is at furniture school, the other makes guitars. We all still watch Youtube, we watch some channels together and we all have our idiosyncrasies. That is part of the joy. Watching/reading/listening, learning and adapting into something that hopefully becomes our own personal style.

 

[MikeG.]

I said a while ago that I have never used the ignore function and cannot see the use for it. The light is beginning to dawn.

I turned it back off to see what you were talking about. We have a poster intent on becoming the most ignored on the forum, and only here for a fortnight so far. So, he disappears again.

 

[Jackbequick]

I think it does come down to youtube. Which, although it does open up learning for a lot of folks that would otherwise not have a way of doing it, provides no feedback when you are actually are on your own as a beginner you have no idea what is important and what isn't. And as been already mention if you want fast progress, which again youtube and the world seems to demand, then there is no substitute to having someone looking over you should and going, wait...

Hi..Utube also has some of the worst techniques and most outlandish claims for them in its money grubbing 'subscribe' features.. Better to learn from a professional.

 

[Jackbequick]

Be ware of youtube, though, because there are many more videos of people doing it wrong than there are of people doing it anywhere near right. You really are in the right place here, akirk, if you're seeking woodworking advice, and help in navigating youtube's pitfalls.

Absolutely agree Mike.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Eshmiel - when you post pictures of something you've made that is anywhere near as good and professional as Cabinetmaker's desk, maybe your post will have some credence. Until then, it's billhooks.

 

[MikeG.]

......maybe your post will have some credence. ......

Not sure I agree with this. He may be the best cabinet maker in history, but that wouldn't make his personal attacks any more acceptable. It also completely ignores the fact that there are many, many approaches to woodworking, all of which can produce wonderful results.

Eshmiel...... surely this can't be Jacob's latest nom-de-plume, can it?

 

[Dave65]

Just felt I should mention this in-case the owner of that bargain Bedrock decides to try it.
Important on that particular plane for instance.

Tom, I will be looking to flatten the sole of the Bargain Bedrock at some point as it is very slightly hollow, if you would like to add some pointers on how best to do this on the bedrock post, so as not to go further off topic on this post, it would be appreciated.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Mike - I did wonder.

 

[Jackbequick]

Hmmmm - yes, you may be right. In future I will be buying car and bicycle that does not go, as speed kills! Also, I will switch all the electric off to the electrical items at the mains. Electrocution is always a possibility - but not if there's no lecky in the wire. ....

Perhaps we should all lock up the shed forever - mine's full of sharp and pointy stuff. 11 screwdrivers at the last count!

I wonder where I can buy a soft and coddling cocoon? But hang on! Those cocoons can probably suffocate a lad if the breathing pipe gets blocked so .............

Perhaps the best strategy is to huddle in bed and never get out. I believe this is practiced to a great degree by the youth of a certain country when the pains of social intercourse become too many.

Eshmiel

Oh dear......are you the person who protested someone else was ignorant a few comments back?... Perhaps you should think about being less 'in control' of intellectual stream and more about maturing in your own thinking. As a professional in OHSE my comment then and now is sensible as a'maybe'.

I do understand that the challenge for some people is to give banal response when safety is mentioned. Yours is a particularly so in its intention to mock and mislead rational thinking and commonsense on various irrelevant fronts after a very reasonable suggestion why tools may not be fine edged at the point of purchase. Voila.

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks for your support gentlemen. My work says it all. And that’s all I’m going to say on this matter. Ian

 

[Phlebas]

Eshmiel...... surely this can't be Jacob's latest nom-de-plume, can it?

Eshmiel is a variant of Ishmael, half grandfather (I think, it's been a long time since I did Scripture) of Jacob, by Hagar, Abraham's 'maid servant' (hem hem).

But you knew that.

Oh hang on, maybe great uncle, perhaps once removed. Not very good with lineages.

 

[Daniel2]

Eshmiel is a variant of Ishmael, half grandfather (I think, it's been a long time since I did Scripture) of Jacob, by Hagar, Abraham's 'maid servant' (hem hem).

But you knew that.

Oh hang on, maybe great uncle, perhaps once removed. Not very good with lineages.

Impressed with the deduction