Calling al Axminster TS-250M-2 saw bench owners

[TRITON]

I've a problem that I've just never got around to sorting, and im about to make a go of(if it is in fact possible) There is parts welded onto the frame for the bolts to screw into, worst case scenario is i would have to forgo those, and drill and countersink new holes and use a nut,bolt and spring washer to secure the top to the base.*

*I actually think this is going to have to be the way it is done. Depends if i can easily remove those bolt 'keepers' though i fear they are welded in place.
Right. Many moons ago I got my saw bench from Axminster outlet, a customer return, which had the problem of someone in the factory where it was built screwed up big time and made the drilling for the cast top to the lower base squint.
What this means in real time is the top is put on squint, so if i measure on the left hand side at the back, the table overhangs at the back by about 1mm but at the front edge of the left hand side it overhangs by about 5mm.

So what happens is the saw cannot be adjusted so the blade is parallel to the slots. I can adjust it slightly, but for example if i make the blade parallel to the slots at 90 degrees, when i cant the saw over to 45 degrees, the leading edge of the blade impacts into the table.
But if it adjust it so 45d and 90d clear the table, it isnt lined up with either the slots or the fence, so for the last several years I've been stuck with it adjusted so i can only have it at 90 degrees. This is not ideal, I mean 45d etc etc is part of the function.

Now I think if i remove the top, and re-drill the lower frame, or even cut it to give a bit of play, I can then adjust the top so it is square to the lower frame, tighten up the bolts and the saw will then be parallel to the slots, fence for 90d,45d and every angle in between.

So what i need someone to do is measure the left hand side overhang to tell me what it should properly be. Im guessing probably 2 or 3mm front and back.

The saw is the earlier 'hobby' model - red and white paint job.
This one
I've got all the bits - the right hand extension, the sliding table and it's a good saw, certainly good enough for my home use, but I'd rather it was all correct. I was thinking of selling it, mainly brought about by the fact i couldn't cut anything other than 90 degrees, but if I can square it all up, then theres no reason to sell. A big bandsaw and my plunge saw are useful, but some jobs really are only suitable for a saw bench.

 

[rogxwhit]

I've just glanced at the manual ( https://www.axminstertools.com/media/downloads/508310_508312_manual.pdf ) and it looks like the table has 4 screws connecting it to the base near the corners, but the saw mech hangs off the table at back & front more centrally & is adjustable to it - the fixing brackets are slotted.

If you undo the top and want to lift it, you'll be lifting the whole weight of the saw mech & motor. But regardless of the relationship of top to base (and if it was mine I'd want them square to each other), the relationship of saw to top is the more crucial one and pertinent to your problem and may be easier to fix.

 

[TRITON]

No, theres the trunnions front and back. You release them as well as the 4 main screws. As the saw on its mountings arent connected to the frame, only to the top, when the top is square the motor mount will be too.
what we're doing it putting the saw back in order as it would be had the frame mounts been put in the correct place. Other than that all parts are as they should be. Plus were only really talking about adjusting it about 2 or 3mm,so i would thing there would be that much play in the areas where the saw controls pop through the frame body

 

[rogxwhit]

The saw on its mountings arent connected to the frame, only to the top,

Yes, I said that. And it seems you need to adjust that relationship (saw to top) - even if you left the top to case fixings undisturbed?

 

[TRITON]

Yes, I said that. And it seems you need to adjust that relationship (saw to top) - even if you left the top to case fixings undisturbed?

The trunnions arent an issue, it only the top to frame that the problem is, and as in my initial post theres no adjustment in the trunnion adjusters that allow me to have the blade in parallel to the fence and slots. Theres only a few mil front and back. I cannot leave it or do anything else that puts the saw back into its correct alignment other than realign the top to the frame.

 

[rogxwhit]

Ok, I must be looking at the wrong model then, but it's a TS-250M-2 and I can't see any trunnions, the saw assembly pivots on welded pins - you must have a later version.

 

[TRITON]

Ok, I must be looking at the wrong model then, but it's a TS-250M-2 and I can't see any trunnions, the saw assembly pivots on welded pins - you must have a later version.

As i understand it those pins are what im thinking of as 'trunnions' I think their correct term might be 'dummy pins'
But either way, its those parts that connect the saw unit to the underside of the top and id need to remove then to get the top to come away fully.

 

[Ttrees]

Not sure if there's adjustment in the arbor, but just incase there is...
see what the blade looks like i.e set @90 and parallel with fence, or timber should it not line up with blade.
and see whether the blade goes out of alignment when tilted to 45, east to spot when fence is butted upto it.
Worth a shot to possibly rule that out should the table be alright.

Tom

 

[TRITON]

Not sure if there's adjustment in the arbor, but just incase there is...
see what the blade looks like i.e set @90 and parallel with fence, or timber should it not line up with blade.
and see whether the blade goes out of alignment when tilted to 45, east to spot when fence is butted upto it.
Worth a shot to possibly rule that out should the table be alright.

Tom

If you look at the picture ive put up ,on it ive explained that the table is misaligned to the base. It should hang evenly front to back, probably by 2 or 3mm, but instead the back is nearly flush, or 1mm, the front the overhang is considerably more, at least 5mm. This means that the top isnt square to the base.
It is a customer return. I knew this when i bought it, and on Axminsters outlet page where they sell factory seconds, this was all explained in the advert. I dont need to check anything else because I know what the problem is.

To solve it i need to realign the top to the base so that the top overhangs it evenly front to back. So all i really need, is for someone with the same saw as mine to measure that overhang on the left side and tell me what it is.

 

[rogxwhit]

It does seem to me that alignment of blade with top, and alignment of top with cabinet, are separate issues, and that the first is the crucial one ...

 

[TRITON]

Look mate I'ver been down that route and its not what i need. If i adjust it using the aligning screws then at 45d the front of the blade impacts on the table.
I've tried to explain what I need in this thread but people keep going off at tangents. Do you think in the last several years I've had the saw i havent tried adjusting it using those points ?. I know what wrong, I know what to do, so fking around with anything else is utterly pointless.

 

[rogxwhit]

so fking around with anything else is utterly pointless.

Well I could flounce off after that. Trouble is, I don't have any skirts to flounce off in. :-(

You know what to do, & you're trying to get around to it, was what I first read. But I was piqued by the practical problem.

I'm not trying to be tangential, though it might've seemed so earlier. Will you allow me a thought?

The cabinet in this design is in the main a passive component. More or less nothing references off it, work-wise. The main active participants are the cast top and the fabricated saw hanger with its movements, whose reference is the top to which they're connected. I know that's a lot of words, but I see things visually & I'm trying to explain.

I don't have an answer - and I think the answer will be tricky to find. But I'm coming to a conviction that it's something to do with how the pivot for the rise and fall - a kind of hinge - relates geometrically to the pivot for the tilt. I suspect that something between them is out of square.

But forgive me for butting in again. I'm only trying to bloody help.

 

[Ttrees]

To solve it i need to realign the top to the base so that the top overhangs it evenly front to back. So all i really need, is for someone with the same saw as mine to measure that overhang on the left side and tell me what it is.

So long as the blade doesn't change in alignment and skew out of parallel when tilted to 45 when you fix the table to where it appears correct.
Yet to delve into this on my old Startrite, thankfully Deema mentioned this to me
as I was thinking it would be a big job.

Good luck with finding your request
Tom

 

[TRITON]

Will you allow me a thought?

Of course, fire away, then add a flounce or two, i'm fine with that

Other than the obvious problem of the top to frame screws being askew, i cant think of what else could be wrong with it.

Obviously something is. The fence is connected to the top itself, so nothing is wrong there. Had the fence been attached to the frame the misalignment being off would throw the fence off,

When i adjust the blade via the hangers, at 45d the blade impacts with the top and even adjusting them fully it still hits the top so i really dont know what the problem is. Obviously I can see the screws are out of alignment, but everything else seems correct so i just dont know

If i could put that obvious issue back in place, im hoping it will all line up, but im completely flummoxed otherwise.

 

[Si465]

I have the equivalent ts200 and tend to agree with Rogx - the cabinet to top alignment is less important and may only affect the lead screws binding or dust outlet clashing.

The only issue I can think of that might cause your problem is the 2 dummy pins not being aligned to each other and/or the saw blade. The vertical alignment feels less important than the horizontal, so it would be interesting to take the top off and check with a straight edge between the 2 pins and the blade.
If it's out I'm not sure how you'd fix it!

 

[TRITON]

First off I'd like to thank the above and offer an apology for me getting a bit hot over it(understandable, all these years not having a fully operational saw) Because i had become blinded by the offset of the table to the frame, when in fact that shouldn't matter really as the saw hangs off the top, so no matter how squint it was, the blade on the hangers would always be parallel.

The fact they aren't kind of points the problem away from the top/frame and more towards top/hangers.

I canted the saw over today and it impacts the table at its leading edge. So what I'll do is loosen off the alignment screws on the hangers, push the blade mountings as far over the the right as it can go and recheck.

As Si's point, it might not actually be fixable in tat there may be no possible solution and to have the ability to have the blade at 90d and angled to its 45d, the fence would be misaligned, so to combat that i should create a false fence, adjusted to take up any misalignment issues.
If thats not possible, and the fence would need to be readjusted whenever i angle the blade, ill either sell it on, or just make do with it at 90d only.

Whatever the case i think im going to be spending the next couple of weeks faffing about with this damned thing, furrowed brow and all

 

[rogxwhit]

1. I feel your pain.
2. It could be likely that the two pivot pins are out of line relative to the axis of the saw arbor (the pin axis should be at 90deg to the arbor axis). A bit tricky to check, though.

 

[Bod]

2, problems as I read it.
1. The top is not square to the base.
2. The 45 degree cutting position is not usable.
For 1. remove the 4 base holding screws adjust the top square, with blade in both 45 & 90 positions.
Be prepared to redrill all 4 base holding positions. (sod's law say's the hole will only be half out.)
For 2. It might be fixed automatically, if not then follow the basic set up for the blade alignment.

If you have a MK 3 base and a MK 5a top then it might not ever be compatible without major surgery.
A Friday afternoon machine if ever there was one!

Let us know if you ever get it right.

Bod

 

[TRITON]

1. I feel your pain.
2. It could be likely that the two pivot pins are out of line relative to the axis of the saw arbor (the pin axis should be at 90deg to the arbor axis). A bit tricky to check, though.

The two pivot points have built in adjustment, which they call in the pics above(70-75) the blade rail. - pic 74

I've loosened off those and the back one moves a bit but the front one wont move at all.
With them loose i should be able to move the entire assembly to the right and at its extreme left it should clear the table when canted over to 45d.
One of the issues this saw has is the slot isnt very central, its too close to one edge of it so when at 45 thats why it impacts the top. If i could move it further away it would allow more space from the edge so shouldn't catch.

It should move left and right to align, and it does so are the rear, but not at the front and i cant see why not. Ive even tried hitting it and still it wont move which leads me to think that maybe the controls tilt/rise are tight up against the frame or cabinet and thats stopping it from moving. I'll need to examine that bit more, maybe even remove the top entirely, but if i remove the top, the saw isnt supported, so it might not be as obvious.

This is a bloody joke. I can see now why Ive left the damn thing alone. Probably encountered the same issues years ago and gave up in frustration.

 

[TRITON]

I've taken the top off and cannot see anything amiss. The hole that the top fixing bolts go through on the frame are large, large enough to afford it a fair bit of play. But something else has to be amiss, and i think its just a case of faffing about until that issue becomes obvious. Problem is ive nothing to go on. No datum point i can work from.

Anyone want to buy a partly disassembled saw bench ?