Building my own workshop

[nickds1]

That is one of the reasons it is not good practice, you can lose control of what phase is supplying each single phase socket and end up with as you say a 400 volt Pd.

Definitely not good practice, but I'm not a sparks - I deal in uV and picoAmps...

Was the 17ed where the two metre rule was dropped? I'm not sure the current edition actually forbids having outlets on different phases in a single domestic room, but I'd be pretty cross if that was found in any recent work.

 

[Limburger]

That would scare me. If you have two bits of kit in the same room on different phases, you can have around 415V volts between them...

Maybe they are far apart, but folk use extension cords...

That's potentially (!) a very serious zap!!

I'm not a electrician so I find this very intriguing. I was not aware of that! Can you explain how you could have +-415V? We have a N Earth F1 F2 F3, between N and a fase is always 230V why do I get 415V between two of them? Only between 2 Fases you would hit 400V but that is not the case in my outlets.

That is one of the reasons it is not good practice, you can lose control of what phase is supplying each single phase socket and end up with as you say a 400 volt Pd.

Teach me please
I want to understand this problem.

 

[Limburger]

Ah wait I though about it a bit, I understand. This is something to think about indeed. I was better of making 3 normal 3 fase sockets and made a separate 1 fase double outlet in the middle. I leave it for now, since these sockets are not there to plug in everyday tools. I ask around a bit here, otherwise I just unplug the 1 fase or screw on normal 3 fase outlets.

 

[Spectric]

Hi

Been in electrical engineering a long time but with UK regs and distribution. So all power generated on the distribution system is three phase, L1, L2 & L3 are the phases with 400 volts between any pair. The star point is where the neutral is taken from and between any phase and neutral you have 230 volts.

When providing a supply to a domestic property you get just one of the phases and neutral to your distribution board to give 230 volts. With an industrial supply you get all three phases and neutral to your distribution board to give both 400 volt to heavier loads and 230 volts to lighting and lighter loads.

So when installing a three phase & neutral socket it is wired from a protective device within the distribution board to the outlet which will often incorporate an isolator. For 13 amp single phase sockets they are all wired from one of the phases from a common protective device as a radial, 20 amp if running 2.5mm or 32 amp if running 4mm. In the Uk we used to use the old ring main run in 2.5mm but history now. If you need a 16 amp single phase supply for a larger load then these need to be wired from the distribution board from a 16 amp protective device.

The problem with the blue industrial connectors is that they are un fused and rely on the upstream protective device, unlike the 13 amp sockets where the plugs can have upto a 13 amp fuse fitted. Remember the protective device is sized to protect the wiring and not the load that is pluged in or connected.

The situation you don't want is for two single phase loads in close proximity to be on different phases because under fault conditions you have the posibility for a potential difference of 400 volts.

 

[Limburger]

Thx for explaning, here we only have 16A at minimum. 1 phase or 3 phase. The 3 Phase can obviously go alot heavier but I run 16A 3phase and also 1 phase.
The last sentence you posted can you explain that? How you get to the 400volts pd?

 

[Spectric]

If you have two single phase outlets, one is on L1 (brown) and neutral and the other is on say L3 (grey) and neutral with appliances connected then although each appliance is independently running on 230 volts, between these appliances is L1 & L3 so the possibility for 400 volts between the two. If both were on the same phase, say L1 then the voltage between the two would be close to zero.

 

[Limburger]

Jip I see. But how can these two outlets on diffrent fases be any harm to some one? Okay I have the 230V and 400V outlet combined, but they are not gonne be used on the same machine or some related to each other? For instance if I plug in my welder on a outlet (230V) and my grinder on another both on diffrent fases how can these harm me with the 400V pd?

 

[jcassidy]

I'm interested in this too, I am guessing the answer is you're not leaving any safety margin for accidents.

 

[nickds1]

Yes - we are looking at worst-case fault conditions, which is what you should be doing.

If Appliance A of phase L1 develops a fault and appliance B on phase L2 simultaneously has a fault, you have the possibility of 400V between them - enough to kill - it's the current that kills, but double the voltage and the current doubles too, albeit briefly, until you cook a bit.

Unlikely, yes. However these are the conditions that could prevail and which the object of safe design is to avoid.

The bottom line is:

• Complying with your local regulations for the type of building & use

...and only then...

• What risk you're comfortable with accepting going forward

 

[TominDales]

Did some final welding on the doors and sealed the outside very good so no water will ever come in between the metal parts. If all goes well there should come any water to these doors.

Just come across this thread. A very nice build, you are very quick and talented with the metal work.
I notice you call yourself Limburger. Do you come from that part of Holland? One of my best friends from university was from Limburg, and I have many happy memories of staying in Maastricht and South Netherlands, the only hilly bit. Good luck

 

[TominDales]

That's correct, 3 phase simply to the 3face socket and one of the 3 fases go to the 230volt. I splitted them up so every one has a diffrent color to the one fase 230v.

This is a good forum for these types of questions as there are many professional electricians who can advice and explain what to do.

You may want to talk to a friendly local electrician who knows the local regulations. It seems an easy fix, use just the one phase for all your single phase work.

Its important to do the electrics in compliance with the local regulations. Not just for your own safety, but, if or when you move on a new owner , or a friend or visitor would not know of any unusual situation. Most of the work accidents i've known happened when someone modified a tool outside of the norm and it was fine for years until a new person came along. So it really guarding against a rare event, but that is what the regulations are for. 400v is a killer. Its seems a simple fit to just use one phase for all the single phase sockets.

 

[Limburger]

Yes - we are looking at worst-case fault conditions, which is what you should be doing.

If Appliance A of phase L1 develops a fault and appliance B on phase L2 simultaneously has a fault, you have the possibility of 400V between them - enough to kill - it's the current that kills, but double the voltage and the current doubles too, albeit briefly, until you cook a bit.

Unlikely, yes. However these are the conditions that could prevail and which the object of safe design is to avoid.

The bottom line is:

• Complying with your local regulations for the type of building & use

...and only then...

• What risk you're comfortable with accepting going forward

A friend of a collegue is electrician, he is coming over for a talk and look over. Thx so far

Just come across this thread. A very nice build, you are very quick and talented with the metal work.
I notice you call yourself Limburger. Do you come from that part of Holland? One of my best friends from university was from Limburg, and I have many happy memories of staying in Maastricht and South Netherlands, the only hilly bit. Good luck

Jip, thats correct.

This is a good forum for these types of questions as there are many professional electricians who can advice and explain what to do.

You may want to talk to a friendly local electrician who knows the local regulations. It seems an easy fix, use just the one phase for all your single phase work.

Its important to do the electrics in compliance with the local regulations. Not just for your own safety, but, if or when you move on a new owner , or a friend or visitor would not know of any unusual situation. Most of the work accidents i've known happened when someone modified a tool outside of the norm and it was fine for years until a new person came along. So it really guarding against a rare event, but that is what the regulations are for. 400v is a killer. Its seems a simple fit to just use one phase for all the single phase sockets.

Working on it.

 

[MichaelChou]

Thx guys, another picture dump below


Interresting! Thx


Yeah, only the mason (guess its called that?) work I didnt do, the inside walls we did by our selfs. Oh and the floor is finished by a pro, those things just need to be tip top.

View attachment 111686
We let the foundation dry a bit, then we removed the boards and started marking out the garage and the walls. Never did this but we took our time and god her done. Was kind of the old fashion way with a hose filled with water to make for a make shift level. (works great )

View attachment 111688
The mason made an outline to get to level with the brick work. Then started on the neighbour side. This was a bit of a pain because I couldn't build the wall from the neighbour side so we had to do it backwards from the outside to the inside. But it just had to be done this way. It was kind of strange to do it this way but I rolled with it, i'm a mechanic i'm just trusting older people with years and years of experience. Since the mason was doing his job, I already designed the steel structur and ordered it.

View attachment 111689
Gladly my boss is awesome and has absolutly no problem with me fixen these thins on afterhours and weekends. So we fitted the long beams in the saw and made them shorter It was very tricky to get the angle ride but we managed.

View attachment 111690
Made some anchor plates and welded them to the beems. Also made the plates in the roof pieces for the wooden beams (don't know the correct english pronounciation).

View attachment 111691
Having a collegue with a loader and a extention helps alot!

View attachment 111693
The day after we put the beams up we made it a bit stronger by putting the wooden beams in, here you see me with cast on my right hand Did something you guys should read twice I think Feel kind of stupid, im no dodgy person or what so ever when it comes to tools and sharp thins, but this one struck my fast. I was measering some things by my self to check my drawings. I had my tape measer all the way out because I was measering a long distance, I was pulling it a bit so it would not sack so much, when suddenly the lip thing came of and the tape came in like a jet fighter and sliced clean in my pinky finger.
After some stitches I went further, and a couple of days later my tendon snaped I just cut the tendon half way thrue and later in the week it snapped.
Realy bad luck, now I had 2 surgeries and a lot of fysio but the right pinky just works half now, we call it a reminder for building my garage.

Later this week more pictures!

I’ve not cringed that much for a while! Glad it’s getting better

 

[Limburger]

Yeah it happens

 

[bjgodefr]

Any updates?

 

[Limburger]

Yeah I discusted it with some mates and i'm not gonna change the electric for now. I am currently sorting out every nut and bold I have and putting it in the cabinet, also sorting the smaller things for the assortment boxes. I have some pics to share, currently the whole workbench is under a mountain of stuff to sort and give a place.

I collected all sorts of hardware true the time (10 years) and trown them in a box/bucket or other thing. When I had a full one I set it away and got another one, I had planned to sort it allong the way but that plan didn't came thrue. So I sat down and sorted for 4 evenings straight and finally got a view of how much I collected. I also had quiet a large assortment of nuts bolts etc. I hate to search for a nut or some hardware that's why I want a big range of hardware to just grab.

Lots of piles like these.

Nuts, lock nuts, big rings, lock rings, normal rings from M4 to M16. Also have a big range of stainles.

Labelled everything.

Range of assortment boxes already filled.

Today I painted some things to fit in the garage.

 

[MARK.B.]

That is a fine looking shop you have created you're attention to detail is clear at every stage and shows in the finished works. Those doors are something else altogether and i mean that in a good way

 

[mikej460]

Very smart organisers - I did something similar with Stanley Fatmax Pro organisers but I do prefer yours!

 

[Molynoox]

this is a super impressive build! you have amazing skills and work ethic, I love your attention to detail and your quest for perfection. Great work!
Martin

 

[Limburger]

Thx all, very nice to get these reactions. I try my best, have some more small updates coming this week