Brown trouser moment

[Steve Maskery]

Dave
I'm glade you have taken it in the spirit in which is was intended.
Re your tenon jig. You can't use your existing guard with a jig like that. I also have a tenon jig that rides on my fence (but mine's better than your-ors, na, na, na-na, na) and it is guarded before the cut, during the cut and at the end of the cut, when my hand is furthest forward and most vulnerable.
You don't needs lots of different guards, just two or three. I have a SUVA-style guard and a stand-alone guard that I use for 99% of my work. You could make them both in a morning.
As regards cross-cutting. Yes, I agree that in that case your hands will be alongside the blade - I had ripping in mind. But in that case, it is even more important that you hands cannot accidentally contact the blade. Remeber, all TS cuts are accidental, no-one ever did it deliberately.
If I were you I'd be a Very Good Boy for the next few weeks
S

 

[wcndave]

Dave,
Read what a professional cabinetmaker has to say about safety. (Malcolm served his 'time' with Robert Thompson, ('The Mouse-Man'), before setting up in business himself, so I would say he was experienced.

Oh, don't get me wrong I am very much in favour of safety, and i want to keep all my appendages, even those not used any more!

I would never remove my riving knife, i would never not wear my safety goggles (and earphones), I never stand behind the line of the blade etc.... however your link shows that EVEN a professional, who must have actually had a guard on (to comply as a business) had an accident. so I am curious about what the guard prevents against... I am not denying it does protect you...

One other thing i do, is lock my door when using machinery, and i have told all my family / friends that if they hear something running, they should not attempt to enter. I think distraction along with not thinking about safety are probably the two biggest causes of accidents.

On the other hand if i was in the states where riving knives are not standard, I may not have been aware of the risks, so if there is something similar, like "it's possible for a tooth to fly off the blade, and the guard stops this passing through you", then i would be all ears!

BTW: have you ever seen "country folk" chopping branches on a big crude table saw, here there is one in every household, no riving knife, the pieces are left on the table to vibrate back in the back of the blade, the wood held "in the air" as it goes through... makes me shiver every time, however 500 people doing it here and no problems for 50 years... I did try doing it properly one time, however had got through about 1 cubic meter in a day, and everyone else was finished with their 10m3, so i left 'em to do it their way - so feel like i am the H&S evangelist here...

 

[Steve Maskery]

 

[wcndave]

(Here being the mountains of Italy...)

 

[heimlaga]

If yuor table saw stands in one place all the way you could suspend the guard from the ceiling or from some suitable beam or you could make an vererhead arm fastened to a wall. If you need an easy way to move the fastening point you could make a telescopic arm from two square section pipes inside each other.


The possibilities are endeless if you have an angle grinder and a welder. If you aren't familar with metalworking maybe you know somebody who would do the metalwork and barter with some woodwork.

 

[wcndave]

Love to... however i have some challenges...

However I am trying to build a house, and it is planned so far to have a 50 sq m workshop. I would have that framed inside with 2x4 to allow behind wall / under floor wiring / DX and to enable me to fix things to walls / ceiling / floor better... so I think then i could manage it.

I have been looking at metalwork, as I go to a knife hammering weekend annually (my avatar to left is me on an anvil), and I made a Damascus blade, which worked out really really nicely, and I finished the handle in wood of course ;-)

However i didn't get the hang of the welder, couldn't see what i was doing, and then when you touch, it was always in wrong place and got stuck, so i had a very very hot rod attached to something completely random (but metal and grounded). If there's an easier way of welding, i am up for it, or will just bite the bullet and get some practice. There's too much to DO in this life!!!!

 

[Allylearm]

Accidents like the poor chap losing his hand seem to fall in to the following categories of lack of attention/distraction, doing something your machine is not designed to do, lack of maintenance/upkeep or over familiarity so becoming unsafe in operation. In this case it seems the purchased saw was bought faulty and not to spec of CE regs.

Guards are there to prevent appendages getting trapped or lacerated or tell you keep fingers/hands away from cutting surface if setup correctly. One of the greatest errors is speed of operator and not letting the tool/machine work at its pace or taking time ot adjust guards. I have also come across accidents not caused by the user but more often than not someone has changed the machine from doing or not operating in a manner it is designed for. To prevent cutting injuries, if your appendages ain't in the vicinity of the blade you do not get cut. Better a push stick or scrap piece of wood to clear debris than your finger. I watch Norm going on about glasses for safety and quite happy remove riving knife and crown guard/nose guard for photographic reasons, do we need to see the blade cut or is it more to do with his machine will not do what he wants with them fitted like that tenon jig of his, handy as it is the blade is uncovered then he proceed's to go over the unguarded blade. I also despair watching people push over planer cutters, I always step over so no slip can occur and hand digits go into open cutter.

As I work in a volume production I like my machinery to suit what I am doing as I have a duty of care for myself and for all who work with me, I want to manufacture quickly but also safely. If I tenon I have a Single End Tenoner/Crosscut/Bandsaw to choose from. If I cut panels I have a Beam Saw/Panel or dimesion Saw/CNC Router nesting/Rip saw and guide by hand, what I mean is you can plan production with varied machinery that will do the job you want both speedily and safely without retorting to removing safety devices, yes it is also dependant on what you have available. You then must have to be more constructive and better planning in operation and operate that your safety is paramount. You also need some very good jigs and this is a art that I have seen of varied hues from damn clever to damn am glad I aint doing it. Watching TV does not help also when you see unsafe practices and must give the hobbyist/amateur the wrong end of the stick as they take this is acceptable. In the end it is the operator experience or ability that gets them by and even then a slight drop in concentration or ill timed act and you loose a finger tip no matter the experience so vigilance is "never let it slip".

 

[wcndave]

So I had a quick play this evening, and found a few things that contributed to removing the guard. Again I am not saying there are not good reasons for having it there, however if you are careful I still can't quite see what it really does... I am of course, not happy to be proven wrong, unless it's after I have put it on ;-)

I guess I would be interested in any practical tips to overcome these difficulties.

Here is a cut ready to go. I want to get this very accurate, so will cut, then use the micro adjuster to go .1 of a mm closer until happy.

With guard on, I really feel I cannot see where I am cutting.

When I take the guard off, you see how high the blade has to be to fit the guard.

Now with no guard for the cut, I can put the blade much lower, and really see what I am doing.

Another example, I use this quick made up fence to cut pieces too small to go on mitre guage and where I want no break out.

This is quick to replace and effective. However won't work with guard. I feel I'd have to make a serious jig to achieve the same thing with guard in place.

Also, I know the lighting is not great, however even with more from left, you cannot see where the cut is.
I suppose a clear guard helps, however Perspex still tends to distort the view.

I feel I may need to call on those Santa services after all. Steve, do you dress up and everything?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Dressing up is extra.
S

 

[Benchwayze]

Dave,

If you want to make repeated accurate cross-cuts to length, use the fence in conjunction with the blade. Set your measurement with the blade stationary. Use a block on the fence to measure from, so offcuts don't get trapped between blade and fence, and won't get thrown back at you. Put a stop on the other end of your mitre guide, and you can then cut away, happy in the knowledge that every piece will be cut dead-on, and to the right length. No need to remove the guard, or even see a line. If you want to work housings, tenons, use the router instead. Then you don't need an unguarded saw.

Please heed the warnings. I can't emphasise it any more. Now I will leave it to your own imagination.
Regards
John

 

[wcndave]

My imagination is bad enough. For repeated cuts I agree, however here I had to make about 200 cuts, none were the same and all had to be within 0.1mm precision.

I can't really see how in this case having the guard removed is dangerous. If I am doing cabinets or something then my hands are miles away anyway.

I am just curious that no one has given a specific danger.

It seems my biggest risk is that I might see Steve in a Santa outfit!

Kick back is bad, so use a riving knife. Trapping is bad so don't use a long fence for a short piece. Use jigs to keep fingers away for small pieces. Don't rip wood that is too thick from top then bottom as blade can get stuck in the middle. ( I use bs for that now). Be careful, be respectful, be aware, don't be afraid... Can't see why with all is a missing guard is so bad.

I am happy to see the light, however all I am getting is flamethrowers...to be frank I get fingers much closer in a router table and that makes me far more nervous then the table saw, as it pulls things across table, whereas TS pulls the wood down onto the table.

I am not short on emphasis, just short on the science / empirical evidence.

Again I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong, I just can't see the wood for the guard...

 

[Allylearm]

Dave,

If you want to make repeated accurate cross-cuts to length, use the fence in conjunction with the blade. Set your measurement with the blade stationary. Use a block on the fence to measure from, so offcuts don't get trapped between blade and fence, and won't get thrown back at you. Put a stop on the other end of your mitre guide, and you can then cut away, happy in the knowledge that every piece will be cut dead-on, and to the right length. No need to remove the guard, or even see a line. If you want to work housings, tenons, use the router instead. Then you don't need an unguarded saw.

Please heed the warnings. I can't emphasise it any more. Now I will leave it to your own imagination.
Regards
John

To support John good advice I do not need to see the cut after setting up the machine correctly. Take Crosscutting on a pull over crosscut. You cannot see the cut, in my case as I am right handed and the cut is masked with the motor body, you would need to cant your head or go lower to see this as my stops are on the left of saw. So when setup to depth and length of stop after measuring sample cut, why do you need to see the cut progression plus my left hand is on the timber (supporting keeping it against back fence) in full view and away from blade, and I let the blade operate at a safe speed to let the blade do its work not be speedy gonzalas and try to get the saw to choke, I have witnessed operators do this and Joiners at that. Same principle with Dimension/rip saw, the only occasion I would like to see my cut is on scribes or stopped cut. On scribing with practice I did know where my cut was through practice with your saw (in some cases use two push sticks) as seeing the rip through nose guard was impossible at safe working height which prevents fingers going past guard. To remedy this manufacturers started putting in place see through guards. For stop cutting a mark or tape on table bed showing where the cut is to stop, suffices with the circumference of blade allowed for.

The riving knife is to stop the timber closing on the blade and happens when timber grain twists it is also a fixing point for Crown guard unless you have the more modern suspended guard with rollover (limted function) abilty (good kit have it on a small panel saw my assemblers use), the closing of saw kerf causes the kickback. A way to prevent this is to wedge the gap open after it passes the riving knife. On cuts the kickback can be so severe to throw the timber back on the operator feeding the saw, the person tailing cannot keep it on the table top and the person pushing has it riving up so to speak, scary first time it happens (brown trousers). Again the Crown and nose guard should prevent full throw back if correctly setup when the person pushes eases back and stops pushing, correct setup to explain is that the nose guard should not be no more than would let your finger under so is a barrier, if I remember right from H&S it is 4/5mm, but a good rule is not to let your digit through as with all guarding. I am lucky that I do not rip cuts anymore in the shop and have a resaw with motorised feed or Beam saw it, due to its different method of cutting and operation I have never seen kickback plus you have smaller saw kerfs depending on blade in operation (Resaw) while rip saws have larger kerfs on average reaching 6mm in some blades, get more out your timber split from a resaw/bandsaw and its quicker/accurate with a motorised feed. My latest Beam saw comes with a laser light so makes straight edging a dawdle before this I used chalk lines and good guess work where the blade was popping through on the beam as you have no line up marks due to saw carraige (again constant operation you get to know where to position it). I never operated a straight line edger in any of the workshops I worked at. But hydraulic clamping (Beamsaw) makes this a very safe machine to operate and with modern CNC is a big evolution from my first Gibens I operated back in mid 80's. I was demonstrated a Martins Panel saw that came with hydraulics on the sliding table and was to keep the materials firmly in position as you pushed, our sister comany bought one and damn fine piece of kit it is. Manual handling is a issue (I get lower back probs myself) and can now be assisted in industrial environments with Pneumatic suction cups/lifters, great kit and lets one of my oldest operators use the Beam without heavy lifting on his own and I save on labour as a single man can still operate.

In a nutshell while managing Joinery workshops since 1989 keeping guards in place and setup I have never had a accident on my saws ecept for skelves and dust getting in operators eye. I class the following equipment my most dangerous and no particular order and must be handled correctly.

1. Bandsaw
2. Crosscut/Chop
3. Spindle (very unforgiven if not setup even blades projection and bolting in can be dangerous if done sloppy)

 

[sometimewoodworker]

My imagination is bad enough. For repeated cuts I agree, however here I had to make about 200 cuts, none were the same and all had to be within 0.1mm precision.

I can't really see how in this case having the guard removed is dangerous. If I am doing cabinets or something then my hands are miles away anyway.

I am just curious that no one has given a specific danger.

I just can't see the wood for the guard...

I think that the problem is that you want to justify a choice to remove a guard. Guards are in their to prevent accidents causing injury and many accidents happen through a sequence of actions that are specific to that one accident.

ie. a rabid/wild cat wanders into your shop, you tread on it, it yaols and scratches you, throws you off ballance and to steady yourself you put out a hand that hits the guard on your spinning blade ( or cut your hand off because you had no guard). the possibilites are endless.

Should you have a guard to protect against rabid/wild cats, no. should you have a guard to protect you against accidents? Too bl***y true you should. Can it be in place 100% of the time, probably not. Is that any possible justification for not having a guard whenever possible, hell no.

If you find you are making many cuts without a guard in place then you need to find a better way. If you can't find a better way, find a better tool.

The cuts you showed could have easly been guarded on a crosscut sled.

Think "how can I guard" not "why should I guard"

 

[studders]

should you have a guard to protect you against accidents? Too bl***y true you should. Can it be in place 100% of the time, probably not. Is that any possible justification for not having a guard whenever possible, hell no.

Exactly right. I can only think of one occasion where I had no choice, that I could think of at the time, but to remove the guard in order to make the cut I wanted to; seeing the unguarded blade whizzing around made me nervous as hell just doing that one cut. No way would I not have a guard as a matter of course, in fact I've gone further and built an overhead guard separate from the riving knife, there are few cuts I can think of that I cannot now do with the guard in place.
Accidents are just that, you cannot generally forsee when or how you might make contact with the blade, you might not even be using the saw yet still get a very nasty cut on an exposed, stationary blade.

 

[Benchwayze]

Dave,
You say your fingers come close to a router cutter, when using a router table. This is true, but I didn't mention a router table. I don't have one. Routers were not really designed to be used upside down. Any really big shop has overhead routers and hand-held routers. I don't have room for a proper O/H router, so I use my routers only by hand with the occasional (very occasional) jig. I can always cut housings by hand of course.

As others have said, you shouldn't try to justify removing the guard. Set up properly, there is no need, nor any requirement to see a line. Studders is right too. I cut myself changing blades. I dropped the blade, and instinctively tried to catch it. That was when I bought a pair of leather gloves!

I think we are all trying to get you to appreciate the risk you are taking. But the words ' horses, water and drink' come to mind. There's also an old song called - 'It Can Happen to You'

I hope it doesn't.
Regards
John

 

[devonwoody]

My sled has a perspex guard front to back and a trap on the back end of the fence.

Twice in five years there as been a small chip of timber fly on to the guard and I was glad it was there. (the timber must have had some deformity) so I would say eyes are even more important than fingers.

 

[Sawyer]

Dave,

Do yourself a favour and Google; Malcolm Pipes.

Read what a professional cabinetmaker has to say about safety. (Malcolm served his 'time' with Robert Thompson, ('The Mouse-Man'), before setting up in business himself, so I would say he was experienced.
Regards
John

Just done so. Urghh! A salutary lesson that even the most experienced (48 years) can have a serious accident from a split second's inattention. No matter how experienced and confident you feel, never, ever be complacent with wood machines.

Anybody still wondering what good a crown guard does? Once heard of a bloke working late at night, who had a blackout and fell on to his saw table. First thing to touch the unguarded blade was his forehead. Found the next morning still in that position (dead of course) with the saw still running and a stripe of blood along wall, floor and ceiling in line with the saw blade.
The most horrible accident I've ever heard of.

If you can't do a job with guards in place - time to think of another method of doing it.

 

[wcndave]

Interesting conversation so far, although you may all just think I am being a muppet..

I am happy to be led/shown and to drink/change, however I do like to see what the context is. For example putting “contents hot” on a coffee to prevent being sued is, I’m sure we all agree, OTT.

I have seen demos of kickback, and know that a riving knife is definitely not OTT.

I don’t think I am looking for a reason to “not put the guard there”, I am considering the cost in terms of hours, vs risk / impact.

In my job (IT) we do a risk analysis, looking at the likelihood, impact and cost to mitigate together.

Now, the impact in this case, losing a finger, or painting the wall with a red stripe, means that the likelihood has to only be quite low, and the cost to mitigate can be quite high, before you say it’s not worth it – I am on board with that.

However the cases that I have so far from the thread are:
- Wild cat
- Distraction (M Pipes)
- Blackout
- Timber chips flying
- Dropping the blade and catching it

We also have one case where the guard itself was the cause of the accident. (OP)

So Wild cat, well low likelihood ;-) however it’s the same as distraction. Distraction is very high likelihood so in my opinion requires addressing, however cost of mitigation is very low: lock the door.

Blackout… well I could do that holding a CC, or using Router Table, so likelihood is very low, and cost to mitigate is very high, so I think I leave that one for now

Chips flying, cost to mitigate low, wear goggles

Dropping the blade, not helped by a guard. I have got quite good at not catching things, even with my foot!

Look at what I do most, which is almost all marked (not measured) cuts, of non-repeated lengths. The impact of the guard (the cost) is quite high.

I suppose I sound like I am looking for good reasons to put it on again, when i shouldn't be....which most of you pointed out… hmm…

However I guess my main queries, which perhaps were not clearly stated were:

1. Is there something that will happen eventually, like for example “a blade tooth will come off one time in every 100 hours use”. A bit like the kick back/riving knife, some danger I just don’t know about, that if I did would make me put it on in a flash.

2. What clever methods can I use so the guard does NOT impact my ability to work effectively.

For point 2, the example was given of using a sled, however with a max guard clearance of about 4cm, I cannot see what kind of sled would work with the guard….

Ok, ok, Steve’s DVD will have to be my starting point I guess.

Also forgive my style, I am only 2 years into doing woodwork as a hobby seriously, and I am not resistant at all to change / learning / being wrong, and definitely not resistant to safety. I am however the type of person who always wants to know why, and how…. Perhaps some of the traits that got me in to this fine mess in the first place!

At the very least it has got me thinking each time I set up, if I can use the guard, so that’s a step forward. If I am doing a set of 6 kitchen cabinets with lots of repeatable cuts, then I can see that it's no effort at all to leave the guard on.

I also saw some new law (could have been misinformation) being proposed in the states that all machines will have to have flesh sensing technology, and that the sawstop already has this? Comes to complete stop in 1/8 of a second when senses flesh. I am really curious how the sensor works, and how it can stop so quickly…

thanks guys!

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Interesting conversation so far, although you may all just think I am being a muppet..
!

Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings

I don’t think I am looking for a reason to “not put the guard there”, I am considering the cost in terms of hours, vs risk / impact..!

totally wrong headed analysis.

However the cases that I have so far from the thread are:
- Wild cat
- Distraction (M Pipes)
- Blackout
- Timber chips flying
- Dropping the blade and catching it
.
!

You are totally missing the point.

Accidents happen, many are unpredictable.
Guards make the result of an accident less bad
QED

For point 2, the example was given of using a sled, however with a max guard clearance of about 4cm, I cannot see what kind of sled would work with the guard….!

you miss understand. The sled has its own guard.

I also saw some new law (could have been misinformation) being proposed in the states that all machines will have to have flesh sensing technology, and that the sawstop already has this? Comes to complete stop in 1/8 of a second when senses flesh. I am really curious how the sensor works, and how it can stop so quickly…

thanks guys!

there is a lot of information on their site and google

 

[wcndave]

Yer, the SawStop actually looks like a really nice saw table as well. shame they don't do them over here.

regarding the Sled comment, I am sure i misunderstand, however I have not seen examples etc, so rather than just saying I am wrong, I am looking for examples!