Brown trouser moment

[BradNaylor]

Hi Karl,

glad you're OK!
As The Tiddles states, selling stuff in the UK without a CE certificate is illegal.
I spoke with someone from HSE a few years back regarding the CE regulations, and apparently, some smaller powertools can be self certificated, but tablesaws and other potentially hazardous machinery has to be regulated by an independant authority, and anything coming into, or made in the UK has to have a CE mark. I'm very surprised that they haven't been pulled up for it by now.
They may be hoping for the best because of the work needed and the time scale to get it legal if any big alterations are needed as there is a lot of work involved for a CE mark.
I remember speaking to Record Power when they were introducing a small table saw about that.
The amount of time and effort put in to ensure the saw was meeting the regulations for CE is massive.
I saw the paperwork and documentation for it and that was a good 2 inches or more thick.
Factor in the time schedule in getting the saw to meet the regulations when its an imported machine and a lot of work is needed to get things where they should be - and where it should be is a machine that is safe for anyone to use, not just professional woodworkers.
A major accident from a machine that doesn't conform, whether a hobby of pro user would have HSE looking for a prosecution from what I was told.

cheers,
Andy

Woodford has taken the stance for years that as their machines are sold for hobby use only they do not need to be CE marked. This did not stop Roy Arrowsmith selling me a drum sander some years ago in the full knowledge that I ran a professional workshop. Unquestionably he'd have sold me a table saw too if I had wanted one.

There was a CE sticker on the switch box. It is only when I sold the machine to a dealer that I found out that this related to the switch only!

If I had had an accident like this I would be reporting it to HSE.

Cheers
Brad

PS The drum sander was a piece of ****, too!

 

[devonwoody]

However I assume the riving knife can drift on to a blade even with a notch?

 

[Karl]

Just been looking at my riving knife - it seems like Karl has chopped his down, which is why the accident took place.
Glad you weren't hurt - hope your underpants are salvageable.
Best regards
Philly

I haven't touched the riving knife, but that doesn't mean that the guy I bought it from hadn't. I don't have an original manual, so don't know whether it has been modified by the previous user.

I'll have a look at your review of the 10" on your site and compare it to mine.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Steve Maskery]

Karl
Really sorry to hear of your woes. Whilst I love the build quality of the X, the riving knife and guard arrangement are, well, it's all been said.

I have no regrets about modifying mine to take a following riving knife. I occasionally have to alter the height, as it is not a parallel movement, but I only have to do it for very shallow or very deep cuts. Anything mid-range is fine. And my SUVA-style guard is easy to use and gives me good protection.

I'm thinking of making another version, where the cover is pivoted in two places rather than just a the back, that way it will stay level, even with thick workpieces.

BTW, MickCheese was asking about the SUVA acronym, it is the Swiss safety insurance organisation. If a machine is approved by SUVA, then insurance companies will insure its use. What we call a SUVA guard is one such approved piece of kit.
More here.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Benchwayze]

Seems more likely to me that the riving knife was loose in the first place and the weight of the guard plus vibrations caused it to fall on the blade.
As someone mentioned previously, the guard should have a generous overhang anyway so if it did swivel on the riving knife all it would contact with is the table top.

Karl,

I'm not suggesting any of this was your fault. My old Coronet has a similar system knife and guard. The guard and/or knife could work loose, so I have gotten into the habit of making sure everything is tight and right before I use the saw. The Coronet guard couldn't fly off as it's in a closed slot. To change blades I remove the lot, but of course, I unplug the machine first!

Karl, I am sincerely relieved to know you got away with this one. It could easily have been horrific. Do I sense the purchase of a full-face shield coming on?

All the best
John

 

[Philly]

Karl
Here's the original knife and guard - the knife is slotted to allow you to alter the guard for height, but the slot is blind so the guard cannot come off. It is mounted at the rear so would be knock up (away) from the blade if the knife slipped - still a pant-filler, but no bruise on the shoulder.
There should be two bolts with split washers to hold the knife in place.
Hope this helps,
Philly

 

[Karl]

Thanks Phil. It is clear that the knife which came with my saw had been chopped down by the previous owner.

How do you find the original knife/guard in use?

Cheers

Karl

 

[chingerspy]

Jesus that knife is very different from the modded one you showed. I'd have a quiet word in the sellers shell-like now too.

 

[Philly]

Karl
Its fine for ripping, etc, but stinks when it comes to dust extraction.
Best regards
Philly

 

[Dibs-h]

Saw the pictures and thought Sh*t man! But you've already had that moment :wink:

Thankfully all's well except for the odd bruise.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Christ on a bike!!!

Glad you're okay mate, bet that one had the nerves tingling for a little while after... :shock:

 

[Mike.C]

Karl if I remember correctly you bought the machine from a business that was closing down? If this is the case, and this professional purchased the saw new, then even under Roy Arrowsmith's dubious Pro/Diy thinking, Woodfords have sold it illegally to a professional.

I'm glad that your ok, because that could have ended up very, very differently.

EDIT I have just looked at the Woodford website and it appears that they do not sell Professional Xcalibur's (Sicar is their Pro range). But I am sure they did at one time didn't they?

Cheers

Mike

 

[porker]

Hi, this is my first post although I have been lurking for a few months and got some great advice from this forum.

My comments are about the whole CE marking debate on this thread. I used to be involved in the whole CE marking thing when it came in in the early '90's when I was an engineer designing industrial pumps. Now I will bow to someone who is more up to date than me and worked on saws (because I know there are special rules for this type of equipment) but these are the aspects that I remember.

No machinery can be sold in the EU without the CE mark after I think around 1993. To do so is illegal. I think the whole hobby/ professional debate is a red herring. As far as I know there is no distinction in the legislation that I have ever seen.

CE marking is usually a self certification exercise. Manufacturers (or importers) may choose to get their products tested by an external body but I know this is not required on most stuff I have worked on (pumps and now mobile phones). Essentially the onus is on the manufacturer to make sure the product meets all the legislation and directives.

I know when it all came in there were some manufacturers that simply marked their products without doing anything because they felt that the legislation would have no teeth (and my experience is that they are reactive only after a problem).

Of course nobody can legislate over someone modifying a component as looks the case this time.

Interested if anyone knows more on this than me as its been a long time...

 

[andy king]

No machinery can be sold in the EU without the CE mark after I think around 1993. To do so is illegal. I think the whole hobby/ professional debate is a red herring. As far as I know there is no distinction in the legislation that I have ever seen.

CE marking is usually a self certification exercise. Manufacturers (or importers) may choose to get their products tested by an external body but I know this is not required on most stuff I have worked on (pumps and now mobile phones). Essentially the onus is on the manufacturer to make sure the product meets all the legislation and directives.

Interested if anyone knows more on this than me as its been a long time...

Hi Porker,

welcome to the forum!
Although I'm no authority on this, the HSE guy I spoke with a few years back told me that there is some self certification allowed, normally for smaller hand held powertools (other hand tools as well as stuff outside the woodworking industry as well I would imagine) but in the case of machinery where there is a high risk factor such as table saws, spindle moulders etc, they have to be tested by a recognised external testing facility.
Unless things have changed since then, I would say it's still the case.

cheers,
Andy

 

[porker]

Hi Andy,

Of course you are right.....

Circular saws are covered in the Machinery Directive and must have a conformity assessment by an independent notified body (INB).

 

[wcndave]

Sorry to waken an old post, but this has got me thinking.

On my TS as the OP said, to cut 5mm you have to raise the blade enough that the piece passes under the mounting for the guard. Also if you cut anything narrower than the guard it gets in the way, and finally if you hold pieces in jigs to cut them the guard gets in the way.

For these reasons it was such a PITA that I removed my guard and left it off. Is this a really bad idea? I have had no problems for 3 yrs and most used piece of kit, but it only takes once... Of course I leave the Irving knife on.

Apart from dust extraction and "putting your hand down on the blade", what is the purpose of the guard?

If it were to stop the bland flying off and into your face, I would be worried about why the blade could come off!

Accidentally getting your fingers into the blade from the side seems to increase with a guard as it reduces visibility.

I may be being naive here, however I always work alone, and very carefully, but should I put my guard back? Even thoug I sometimes feel it makes it more dangerous...

 

[heimlaga]

My personal opinion is that a blade guard fits on a riving knife like eye glasses on a moose.

I find the blade guard worth the fuss involved since it has already saved me a finger or two and I am only 30. However I prefere the guard to be suspended from above from some kind of arch bolted to the back of the saw table.

 

[Steve Maskery]

if you cut anything narrower than the guard it gets in the way, and finally if you hold pieces in jigs to cut them the guard gets in the way.

Then you are using the wrong sort of guard. The guard that comes with the saw is almost certainly intended for ripping and only for ripping. You need a range of different guards for different applications.

For these reasons it was such a PITA that I removed my guard and left it off. Is this a really bad idea? I have had no problems for 3 yrs and most used piece of kit, but it only takes once... Of course I leave the Irving knife on.

In the USA alone there are 100 admission to A&E for TS-related accident every single day. most of them lacerations and amputations. Watch the testimonials on the SawStop site. Theya re experienced guys who had been doing that with no problems for years and years. But then that once happened.
I think you have answered your own question.

Accidentally getting your fingers into the blade from the side seems to increase with a guard as it reduces visibility.

Your fingers should never get to the side of the blade!

I may be being naive here, however I always work alone, and very carefully, but should I put my guard back? Even though I sometimes feel it makes it more dangerous...

Please put it back. Make some push-sticks. Make a kick-stop. Make a range of different guards so that you can see what's happening, you keep in control, you are not prevented from making the cut, you are protected from injury and you don't spend months in physio instead of your workshop.

There are good design for all sorts of safety accessories on my DVD WE8.
Sorry to sound harsh, but you really are taking unnecessary risks.
Regards
Steve

 

[Benchwayze]

Dave,

Do yourself a favour and Google; Malcolm Pipes.

Read what a professional cabinetmaker has to say about safety. (Malcolm served his 'time' with Robert Thompson, ('The Mouse-Man'), before setting up in business himself, so I would say he was experienced.
Regards
John

 

[wcndave]

Not at all Steve, I want it as candid as it gets ;-)

I am aware that the TS can be dangerous, and I treat it with great respect. I am sure there are lots of TS accidents, however I am interested in what accident the guard actually prevents. Other than leaning on a still running blade whilst chatting with my mates, I struggle to see what situation. I am curious as i'd like to know what to watch out for when not using, as well as seeing the reasons for using...

Not sure how your fingers can not be to the side, when you cross cut, holding a workpiece your hands pass by each side, and the smaller the piece the close they get. I was making a model recently and had ripped about 4m of 6mm ply to 2" strips. then needed to crosscut to width, varying from 2" to 12" and for the small cuts i had a jig, and for others i guess my fingers were up to 2" from the blade, however i was extremely careful and had the blade ad low as possible. with the guard i still need to push the piece past, however need the blade about 30mm above table, instead of 6mm!

I do use push sticks, not sure what a kick stop is, sure there is a DVD set somewhere that will tell me ;-)
If i have to make a guard for every different cut i would spend my life doing that, and I need a TS to make the guards...

perhaps Pros tend to get blasé as they do it all day?

Here is a jig i use for cutting tenons, although I do tenons another way now, i still use this for making similar cuts. I cannot see how i can use my guard with this for example.

As you can see i have built it to keep my hands away from blade, and workpiece steady, so i am fairly safety minded.

I suppose if I had it on some kind of spring above, so i could pull down when needed, and simply let go when it's in the way, however my shop won't allow for that.... problem with fixing to back of table is that the fixing get's in the way...

I have long been considering your DVDs so maybe they would give me some inspiration as to how the guard can not get in the way, let's see what santa brings ;-)