Bringing goods from the EU

[MarkDennehy]

I saw this description of the place on SM the other day from a gentleman in England:
South & North of Eire

Yeah, the Eire thing is a bit... problematic.
See, if you're speaking English, the word is Ireland. If you're speaking Gaeilge, the word is Éire but that fada over the E matters, because E and É are completely different letters in Gaeilge and the difference matters. For example, cáca means cake, which you'd like to eat and caca means faeces which.... well, to each their own but I'd rather not (There's more to it, like the point that Gaeilge didn't actually use the latin alphabet English uses originally so it was easier to see the difference and so on, but I'm not enough of an expert to go that far in it - native speakers aren't common in Ireland)
So "South & North of Eire" is a phrase that in a way describes the speaker better than the object

 

[Jake]

I've read the contract - and, from a previous life, am used to reading such things........

I've skimmed it but only focused on the bits in issue, and same, but still current life for better or worse.

It looks to me that the EU are pointing at Clause 5.4, where the UK factories are mentioned. There's room for some ambiguity, but my reading of 5.4 is that it's a clause put in by the EU seeking AZ's Best Endeavours to manufacture IN the EU (presumably because of confidence in standards and/or to keep the money spent locally) and they state that the UK factories will be deemed to satisfy this requirement. It's NOT a clause focussed on manufacturing FOR the EU.[

The clause goes on to say that the EU will try to help find alternative manufacturing sites in the EU in the event of production problems etc. And then goes on to say how they will approve sites outside the EU if all else fails.

The EU seem to be misrepresenting the contract..........

I don't think there is a problem for them in Clause 5.4, that works fine. UK is deemed to be EU for the purposes of that clause. So AZ is obliged to use best endeavours to supply from EU+UK (I think that is because AZ's plan is to produce mainly from the UK once fully ramped up - unclear to me how far they have got on that). What the Commission was getting very hot under the collar about was the AZ representation at 13(1)(e) that AZ had no prior obligations which would hinder its fulfilment of its obligations under the agreement (which include best endeavours to make supply on schedule). As I said, that obviously doesn't work, can't work. So the EU definitely got the wrong end of the stick in saying AZ is is breach, poor lawyering.

 

[Noel]

Yeah, the Eire thing is a bit... problematic.
See, if you're speaking English, the word is Ireland. If you're speaking Gaeilge, the word is Éire but that fada over the E matters, because E and É are completely different letters in Gaeilge and the difference matters. For example, cáca means cake, which you'd like to eat and caca means faeces which.... well, to each their own but I'd rather not
So "South & North of Eire" is a phrase that in a way describes the speaker better than the object

It's problematic (fada not withstanding) for some as their out look is still tethered to a bygone age, usually around 1950 or so.

 

[stuartpaul]

Surely it's an own goal, not just a deflection but UvdL, picked up the ball in defence passed it to half her brexit team, dribbled around her team mates and scored a cracking goal. Celebrated for 2 hrs and then realised that no one was cheering, thought about it for a few more hours and then told everyone it wasn't a goal and that she hadn't meant to shot from 20 yards out and that it was a ball boy encouraging her which made the oversight happen.
Now she is invoking article 122, which basically means she is taking ownership of the pitch and goalposts and football, and she will go home, for tea, if no one likes it.
She's been in charge of the team for 3 days, maybe 4, and she's lost the fans already.

Feck me Bob, - that’s an analogy! Never thought I’d see the day.

 

[Keith Cocker]

Who is the carrier out of interest? None of the major carriers seem to be having these problems.

Not true in my experience. I ordered an item from Amazon UK - a low value extension bar for a ratchet - and they shipped it from their Spanish facility via UPS on 19th Jan. Its still not here. the UPS tracking shows ""The package is delayed due to a Brexit related disruption. We are adjusting delivery plans as quickly as possible" I think UPS would regard themselves as a "Major carrier"!! Brexit is the worst mistake this country has made for a very long time IMO.

 

[Peterm1000]

I've skimmed it but only focused on the bits in issue, and same, but still current life for better or worse.



I don't think there is a problem for them in Clause 5.4, that works fine. UK is deemed to be EU for the purposes of that clause. So AZ is obliged to use best endeavours to supply from EU+UK (I think that is because AZ's plan is to produce mainly from the UK once fully ramped up - unclear to me how far they have got on that). What the Commission was getting very hot under the collar about was the AZ representation at 13(1)(e) that AZ had no prior obligations which would hinder its fulfilment of its obligations under the agreement (which include best endeavours to make supply on schedule). As I said, that obviously doesn't work, can't work. So the EU definitely got the wrong end of the stick in saying AZ is is breach, poor lawyering.

Not "Best Efforts". The contract says "Best Reasonable Efforts". The contract goes on to describe that as the kind of effort a similar sized company would make. The addition of the word "reasonable" and the language afterwards reduces the standard from "Best Efforts" substantially. It's now an arguing match between the two sides as to whether AZ could "reasonably" do more. I don't think many companies would breach the terms of a contract with one client to improve the speed they deliver for another.

I heard on the news that the reason the EU took 3 months longer is because they secured a cheaper price per dose than the UK (strange, because all these Brexit threads are full of Leave supporters claiming the EU squanders money and the UK government would have a much more penny pinching approach).

 

[doctor Bob]

The daft thing is that the Brexiteer glee seems to centred around the notion that some people think the EU is perfect (and thus the illusion is shattered). That's never been the case at any point in this long and tedious argument; it's always been about a pro/con balance. I'll take a poor PR screw up and U turn over our litany of visits from the foobar fairy any day of the week.

Of course I see your point, but only a few weeks ago your gang was pointing out "George the truckie losing his sandwich."
So why make such a big deal over it. Well it scored you a point. So I don't really think your in any position to chastise me for my "glee", mainly because you all go so excited over a confiscated ham sandwich, some of you really "went to the shed" over it.
So you see, it's very easy for things to bite you in the arris.

 

[MarkDennehy]

It's problematic (fada not withstanding) for some as their out look is still tethered to a bygone age, usually around 1950 or so.

I mean, the original origin of the word Eire (as opposed to Éire) is very much... well, it's very full-on stereotypical whitehall mustachio'd villan actually, but most of those originators are just gone these days. What cracks me up about the word is that it's far harder to pronounce compared to "Ireland". I mean, if you're saying Eire, the word structure is just a bit odd compared to most English nouns so you get fifty different ways to say it. Saying Éire would be a bit hard to master as well if you grew up speaking English becuase the long vowel sounds are one of those things that always sound like you have an odd accent if you didn't learn them through immersion (I mean, I thought I could pronounce French after school, and then the first French person I spoke French to just very politely asked me to stop because I sounded like I'd learnt French in Korea and it was hurting their ears).
But "Ireland" is easy to pronounce (unless you're from Boston apparently, and they pronounce it with a long 'r' and what sounds like six 'e's more than are written into the word and somehow they get a descending pitch tone on the 'I' which I have trouble replicating when I try ).
Honestly, it's like watching someone going out of their way to make life harder on their mouth

 

[RobinBHM]

It looks like the EU misread the strength of their contractual hand vs AZ. Interesting argument because AZ promised them it had no prior contractual obligations which would prevent impede hinder it from fulfilling its supply obligations to the EU. As AZ had a 'best endeavours' duty (really high) to fulfill supply schedule to the EU I think the Commission read that as cast iron and that AZ would be in breach if they didn't at least throttle UK supplies proportionally to the throttle on UK supplies (which has been their ask for weeks)

But I think that's wrong, as best endeavours do not oblige you to breach obligations to third parties. So the prior agreement with the UK did not prevent hinder etc AZ from using Its best endeavours, it just had already reduced the scope of what it could with best endeavours at the time it contracted with the EU.

As for the row generally, picture the reverse. All AZ production is in the UK and and we paid for a new factory which is struggling but the EU is refusing to accept a proportional cut in supply, with the effect that the UK is shorter of supply than the EU despite it all being produced in the UK. I think I know how jingoists woukd paint that one, and I am absolutely sure this UK government would be threatening all sorts of emergency measures.

I think the EU is upset because they agreed 120million doses.
AZ then told EU before Christmas they could only do 80million
AZ then told EU this week they could only do 30 million.

EU did pay AZ $400 million upfront, so they've invested in setting up the factories too.

I believe the contract includes a "competing contracts" clause....so it does mean there's a case for EU vs UK supplies.

Yes the EU took longer due to price and legal negotiations.

UK have removed any comeback from AZ for any legal,claims, EU have not.

 

[sploo]

Of course I see your point, but only a few weeks ago your gang was pointing out "George the truckie losing his sandwich."
So why make such a big deal over it. Well it scored you a point. So I don't really think your in any position to chastise me for my "glee", mainly because you all go so excited over a confiscated ham sandwich, some of you really "went to the shed" over it.
So you see, it's very easy for things to bite you in the arris.

I don't think there was any celebration over the "sandwich loss incident" (or indeed any of the problems caused by Brexit). A fair bit of "we told you so", sure; but no celebration. We're all being bent over and shafted by this together.

There's also a rather different magnitude of screw up here: the EU took some action that was legal under the withdrawal agreement, which was however poorly thought out, ham fisted, bad PR, and then U turned (after having made themselves look daft). In comparison, the UK government have handed the nation long term trade barriers, and threatened to break international law (as just two "minor" examples of the Brexit debacle). Not really on the same level of mess or impact is it!

PS I've lost count of the number of times our government has done something dumb and then U turned this month; let alone over the last year, so it's rather pointless to keep score on that one as it ain't "them" that are losing that game.

PPS My "arris" is nice and soft

 

[Jacob]

UK firms plan to shift across Channel after Brexit chaos
Well whooder thortit? Stone the crows! Quelle surprise! Blow me down wivva fevver!
Anne Widdecombe never said anything about this?
Could be a problem now freedom of movement now ended - it might be hard to follow the businesses and get a job.
Oh well I'm sure it'll all work out for the best, Johnson seems quite confident, Farage and Widdecombe will have thought it through carefully.
Good to know it's in safe hands...... er....

 

[Jake]

Not "Best Efforts". The contract says "Best Reasonable Efforts

Yes true, same point holds though. Breaking commitments in a prior contract cannot be within the scope of that.

 

[Jake]

She's already spoken for.

View attachment 102201

That is Bob isn't it?

 

[Jake]

the EU took some action that was legal under the withdrawal agreement, which was however poorly thought out, ham fisted, bad PR, and then U turned

What actually happened was the Commission announced an intention to do something politically incendiary, but possibly legal if they followed the procedure. Then said totalitarian unaccountable overlords got told to shut up and reverse course by the the elected heads of the sovereign governments of member states, and did so.

 

[sploo]

What actually happened was the Commission announced an intention to do something politically incendiary, but possibly legal if they followed the procedure. Then said totalitarian unaccountable overlords got told to shut up and reverse course by the the elected heads of the sovereign governments of member states, and did so.

Wait... individual states that are EU member countries have sovereignty!?!??!?!? Elected national heads could override the Commission!?!?!?!?

It's almost as if the EU system works

 

[Jake]

Wait... individual states that are EU member countries have sovereignty!?!??!?!? Elected national heads could override the Commission!?!?!?!?

It's almost as if the EU system works

Nuts isn't it.

 

[Jacob]

UK firms plan to shift across Channel after Brexit chaos

And if they do move guess what - they'd have to employ foreigners!
We've lost freedom of movement to stop horrible foreigners stealing our jobs and now they will not only be taking our jobs but taking our businesses too!
Was this really in Johnson's oven ready deal?

 

[Rorschach]

And if they do move guess what - they'd have to employ foreigners!
We've lost freedom of movement to stop horrible foreigners stealing our jobs and now they will not only be taking our jobs but taking our businesses too!
Was this really in Johnson's oven ready deal?

They could still employ British people, just like firms here can still employ Europeans, the difference is there is no automatic right to be able to work/settle. You know this of course, but it isn't on your record.

 

[PetePontoValentino]

Today DPD returned to me a package meant to a friend in Italy, for the second time..
When that happened the first time, one week ago, their customer service were very apologetic and also said there was no reason on file for the parcel to have been stopped before even leaving the UK, and that they were happy to either refund me or pick it up again,
Having opted for the latter, and rated them 1 star on trust pilot pending succesfull delivery, they got back to me explaining that unfortunately the package was being returned once again, and it was a widespread problem related to Brexit, affecting manydeliveries over the last month or so.
However, they also mentioned this should now be solved.
So I am trying again..

The delivery driver for my area is always the same and after the second return apparently assumed I was some trader in the habit to ship defective items

Good luck with your shipping, I had a bit of a giggle about the dodgy trader

 

[PetePontoValentino]

That is one way of seeing it, but not necessarily a perfect description of the situation.
When work got in the way of me attending sessions at my turning club, I notified the president that unfortunately it made little sense for me to remain a member.
I was reassured that I would anyway be welcome to attend sessions whenever I could, for a fee at the door, but other activities such as trips to show, socials and similar, were reserved to members only.
If I were a certain kind of person, I could have thought, or even argued, that it was probably some evil ploy to teach me a lesson and encourage other members not to leave the club. People reasoning like that about every day life and ordinary things are rare I think, but in life you meet all sorts.
But how would that reasoning sit with the club members?
They made the club so to help each other, enjoy each other company, and access activities that would be very hard to organize on a regular basis as a bunch of unconnected woodworkers.
Of course the implications of that is also that the benefits are only for members. And that the activities work accordingly to the club. I cannot have my own favourite time for demonstrations, restrict them to bowls work only, demand that it all reflects my own spin on woodturning.
And if I demand for my suggestions to be heard as a non member, that might well fall on deaf ears.
But does that really happen because I am being punished?
Are we, non members, the very center of the club's concerns?

I found it interesting that, when applying so called common sense to their normal life, activities and social activities, people come up with conclusions completely different than their opinion about politics, international trade and so forth.

An interesting analogy, however, I see (all) politicians as somewhat different to "normal people". I left the UK in 2020 and now live in Switzerland. I regularly order stuff that I can't get over here but am becoming reluctant to do so as the shipping is so much hassle.

Okay, so the impact of Brexit is relatively small and I can thankfully side step most of the Brexit stuff that is going on.