Brass cutting rings

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Kittyhawk

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Would anyone have experience in using these please?
I have a length of 8mm copper pipe which needs to go into an 8mm brass conector, sealed by a brass cutting ring. I am advised to use a cutting ring as opposed to an olive as there will be a bit of pressure in the line. The cutting ring is quite sloppy on the pipe before tightening with 0.3mm between the pipe diameter and the the cutting ring hole. Will this take up once it's cranked up tight onto the connector? I don't recall olives being so loose.
 
I don’t think I’ve come across them but I’m curious about what pressure level you’re going to be getting that would blow out an olive compression fitting.
 
I don’t think I’ve come across them but I’m curious about what pressure level you’re going to be getting that would blow out an olive compression fitting.
I'm of the same opinion regarding the olive. It's the termination point of a gas line where it connects to a small Truma water heater. Supply source is bottled gas. I made a mock up joint using a piece of 8mm pipe joined to a connector using an olive. Clamped thr pipe in a vice and no way could I pull the connector off the pipe. The fellow who advised the cutting ring was a hydraulics man and probably thinking of much higher pressures than a gas line will ever have. A cutting ring is likely an overkill?

A cutting ring is like an olive - slightly different shape - and has inside a couple of sharp ridges that bite into copper pipe when it is compressed/tightened up thereby increasing its holding power.
 
I’ve just looked it up and the specs of an olive are way over what would be needed for gas!

From the sound of it the cutting ring will just be what he knows well.
 
From what little I've read it would appear that cutting rings are favoured in some hydraulic applications - I've no idea why - perhaps just an alternative...
A bit like this discussion on how tight to make 'em - thread...
 
Thanks for the replies.
Forum common sense to the rescue. I'm going to stick with the good old olive for the connection. Will do the soapy water test thing once the connection is installed and working.
 
What an interesting topic, gosh I’m dull. I deal with fluids and gasses in pipes every day and I’d never thought about the design specs for copper pipe work.

Looking at olives it seems max design pressure is c.15barg, and 15mm copper pipe c. 50barg. Brass cut fittings are variable but look to be 70barg and upwards.

LPGs are stored as liquids and the the pressure in the cylinder results from the vapour pressure of what is stored and the ambient temperature. Propane is more volatile and at 40degC has a vapour pressure of c. 12barg. Butane is lower volatility with a VP of 3barg at 40degC.

So you would need an abnormal situation with temperatures above 40degC and be running pure propane cylinders for the olive to experience pressures above design.

I love engineering.

Fitz
 
@Kittyhawk, does the supply come through a bulkhead regulator? If it's anything like ours that should be a 30 mbar supply. Based on @Fitzroy s figure above the olive should be good to 15000 mbar, assuming my maths is working
 
What an interesting topic, gosh I’m dull.
No you're not!
In my book there is nothing better than an answer to a question that is backed up by facts and figures from a man who knows what he is talking about. I can now go ahead and make the connection with an olive, assured that it is more than adequate for the job, always under the proviso of course that it is done properly.

@Kittyhawk, does the supply come through a bulkhead regulator? If it's anything like ours that should be a 30 mbar supply. Based on @Fitzroy s figure above the olive should be good to 15000 mbar, assuming my maths is working
Yes, delivery is via a standard regulator set at 30mbar.
 
If olives were a problem there are many thousands of campervans, motorhomes and caravans that would have gone up in smoke by now. A large number use propane rather than butane for extended seasonal use.
 
I run an LPG converted Jeep, and have helped many others with similar. Nothing wrong with regular olives.
Very much frowned upon to use tape or any sort of sealant on an olive. Completely unnecessary anyway. You just need to make sure everything is nice and clean, and don't overtighten them.
 
I run an LPG converted Jeep, and have helped many others with similar. Nothing wrong with regular olives.
Very much frowned upon to use tape or any sort of sealant on an olive. Completely unnecessary anyway. You just need to make sure everything is nice and clean, and don't overtighten them.
I stand corrected - you live and learn until you drop.
 
As a (now retired) LPG operative, cutting rings and associated steel fittings are only used on steel / stainless steel pipe. Joints for LPG when using copper pipe are predominently made using brass compression fittings with parallel soft copper olives. All LPG joints are assembled dry - jointing compounds / tapes are only permitted on taper threads.

Thoughout my 18 years in the industry, the majority of my call-outs were to attend LPG escapes relating to poorly made joints. As an example of just how crazy things can get, LPG on boats uses imperial pipe and you'd be amazed at the effort & ingenuity that can be employed to get a gas-tight joint in 3/8" (9.35m) pipe when using 10mm fitting -plumbing (not parallel) olives over other plumbing olives, MILES of PTFE tape to name but two. Getting 10mm pipe into 3/8" fittings is also possible but requires more 'grunt' than ingenuity . For information, the ONLY imperial / metric equivalent recognised by the LPG industry is 8mm to 5/16" (7.937mm).

And, to cap it all, I wish I had a quid for every person who'd told me they has a 'small' gas leak - LPG is heavier than air, and lingers for ages (and that why boats have a ZERO (non-discernable) leak tolerence. If you need to appeciate just how powerful LPG is, (at cylinder pressure) LPG can be, just look at any explosion in an action film or the huge spouts of flame from installations around sports pitches when a goal / try is scored. If you don't know what you are doing - DON'T do it - that's why the gas industry is regulated by the HSE who regularly prosecute the hell out of businesses / individuals who are not "A Class of Person as Approved by the HSE" ...
 
If it's all outside probably ok
If it's all inside do you need a gasafe person
Regardles of popular myth, folklore (or forum 'experts'), ALL gas work the UK in regulated. From an LPG perspective, the only task that can be performed by a non-registered individual (because it is not classified as 'gas work') is the changing of an LPG cylinder or the filling of an LPG-fuelled vehicle. All other 'gas work' can only be performed by a competent individual with the appropriate ticket((s) - ie: must possess the relevant ACS qualification(s).

Another myth is the belief that anybody can cobble together a gas installation and then ask a registered operative to 'sign it off' - if the work is carried out by a non-qualified individual, the registered person cannot 'sign it off' because selection of the components used in the installation, the construction methods employed and most importantly, the testing, commisioning & certification of the installation are ALL aspects that the registered individual states that THEY have performed themselves ...
 
Regardles of popular myth, folklore (or forum 'experts'), ALL gas work the UK in regulated. From an LPG perspective, the only task that can be performed by a non-registered individual (because it is not classified as 'gas work') is the changing of an LPG cylinder or the filling of an LPG-fuelled vehicle. All other 'gas work' can only be performed by a competent individual with the appropriate ticket((s) - ie: must possess the relevant ACS qualification(s).

Another myth is the belief that anybody can cobble together a gas installation and then ask a registered operative to 'sign it off' - if the work is carried out by a non-qualified individual, the registered person cannot 'sign it off' because selection of the components used in the installation, the construction methods employed and most importantly, the testing, commisioning & certification of the installation are ALL aspects that the registered individual states that THEY have performed themselves ...
I have seen some LPG installations on cars that are frankly beyond belief.
Very surprised that when I changed insurers the new lot were not interested in seeing any paperwork certifying the installation.
So in practice anyone can buy a kit off e bay and fit it. If they can get it to work then off they go!
I fitted mine myself, but only so far as installing the various components and the wiring. It was then taken back to the supplier for them to check, before then making the final connections and commissioning, testing and mapping the ECU. They then signed it off.
Not sure if this approach is entirely in accordance with the rules but I have known them for years, and they know the standard of my work.
One supplier I know now refuses to have anything to do with certification of anything unless they have done the entire installation from start to finish.
He got fed up with people bringing him stuff they had fitted where they had completely ignored all the various rules, despite him supplying pretty comprehensive details with the equipment. They then got very shirty when he refused to sign off the result. He had a very interesting catalogue of horror photos of some of the stuff he had been presented with, some of which demonstrated a level of stupidity that beggars belief.
My favourite was the guy with a toroidal tank fitted under the car so it was about two inches off the ground. Apparently he had asked for one that would fit in the spare wheel well, but then decided he didn't want to lose the spare wheel so simply bolted it on underneath!
A very common problem on cars is that every gas part inside the vehicle that might leak must be contained in a sealed housing with vent pies to the outside of the vehicle, so if there is a leak gas cannot find it's way into the car. Once installed the system should be checked to make sure it is satisfactorily sealed. Some people just don't bother at all, or seem to miss the point entirely with trunking that is not properly connected or with bits missing.
I have always thought that a gas converted vehicle should have to have the installation inspected regularly, either as part of the MOT or an annual check by a suitably qualified person. The latter probably being more practical as I dare say MOT testers already have enough to think about.
It should certainly be unlawful to drive a gas converted vehicle on the road without the installation being properly certified, but that is not the case.
Gas boilers are another example. Nothing to prevent anyone buying a boiler and installing it themselves, with potentially disastrous consequences. When we extended a previous property and needed a new bigger boiler I did much of the work myself, actually hanging it on the wall and installing the water pipes and flue. It was in a different location to the original one so it was pretty straightforward. My then Corgi registered mate came and disconnected the gas to the old one and connected up and commissioned the new one. Nothing to actually stop me doing it all myself if I wanted, and still the case today. Ok without a gas analyser you won't get it running as efficiently as it might but it will run. My plumber reckoned it would be fairly easy for the manufacturer to set it up in such a way that it wouldn't be possible to get it working without the proper kit. He had seen quite a few really dangerous DIY jobs and had a bit of a bee in his bonnet about it. This was many years ago, not sure how prevalent it is now.
I would have thought it would be simple enough for the manufacturer to determine what parts necessitate messing with the gas side, and for legislation to prohibit the sale of those parts, and the boiler itself, to anyone who isn't gas safe registered.
Seems simple enough.
 
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