Beware the cheats!

[Trevsf1]

Its a sad state of affairs. A company local to me used to make bespoke staircases. They were then visited by a Romanian company who now make the goods for them at 25% of their UK production costs.....

Sad thing is the majority of people now want a price point product as opposed to ethical.

A company I worked for supplied a MAJOR high street store with 'own brand' products. We sourced the product ( usually China ) and sold it through. Then China became too expensive for our buyers as they had received quotes from a competitor who manufactured in Vietnam. The company I worked for then changed manufacture to Cambodia to retain the business. To put this is perspective we bought at $0.87 per unit and sold at $ 1.90 into the UK/ The high street retailer sells at £ £ 9.50, yes £9.50

 

[Mr T]

To backtrack a little...

Next year the GCSE exam is changing. There is just one exam for all craft subjects, i.e. people doing fashion and textiles will do the same exam as Resistant Materials, Product design, Graphics, etc. This does two things: it precludes students doing more than one craft subject and it makes the exam a nonsense. Questions cannot be asked specific to any topic anymore, because students who do one subject cannot be expected to know about the other, so questions are going to be so none specific that knowledge of anything is going to be limited. At the same time, the practical element of the subjects have been reduced, so the exam gains the student more mark towards the GCSE grade. I work with a teacher who is setting next year's exam questions and she tells me that the exam will be mostly about paper and card, the only commonality between all the subjects and really generic questions about
Industrial production and environmental issues. We are doomed..


Mike.

My initial reaction to this is disbelief, it's just irrational, how can it possibly work!!!!

Chris

 

[RobinBHM]

There is almost no furniture industry in this country now. I studied furniture production at High Wycombe learning production management.

In the 1980s High Wycombe was still a centre for the furniture industry with G-plan and Ercol almost next door to each other. Parker Knoll just up the road, Glenisters and many others in surrounding streets. Almost all of the furniture companies in the town have disappeared. At the top of the market Ercol and Parker Knoll still survive. Whilst at college I also spent a year at Ducal in Andover, pine furniture makers employing some 400 people.

Fashions have changed, pine is no more- Ducal closed down. G-plan and similar 70s styling didnt adapt to market trends. Yesterdays high street retailer Courts have been replaced by Next, oak furnitureland etc.

The demise of the furniture industry is down to a number of factors:

Market trends and the considerable change in furniture retailing

A lack of demand for high end furniture

Technology, considerable automation means the industry favours large factories

Opening up of cheap labour markets, China, India, Vietnam, Thailand etc

Ever increasing UK legislation on industry

A loss of appetite in the UK for manufacturing, we are mostly a service economy now.

It is possible to earn a good living in the furniture industry but not in bespoke craft produced free standing furniture or in small factories making batch produced furniture.

If you want to make money doing bespoke work there is a commercial market for high end furniture, for pubs, restaurants, shop fitting, offices and hotel receptions. The domestic market is very very tiny.

If you dont mind doing fitted work, there is a market for kitchens, wardrobes, home offices etc.

 

[woodbrains]

What exactly is shonkyness Mike . Scouser slang?

Chris

If it's any good somebody will buy it even for £1000.
You aren't competing with importers of cheap stuff it's a different market. You wouldn't set up a restaurant to compete with McDonalds - you'd do what 1000s of successful little restaurants do - offer something very different, much better but more expensive.
Personally I do think "bespoke" etc is a boggler. It means clients with "ideas" :roll: . Much better to simply make and sell, ideally in runs, for economy of scale (i.e. MORE PROFIT!!).
Or in my case to offer just one standard of service which was either to repair, or do only perfect replicas, of period joinery. No double glazing, nor brown windows, no compromise, etc etc. Not that I got rich but I could have if I'd worked it out a bit sooner! I'm now retired more or less but selling the occasional item at quite good prices.

Hello,
Chris,
Shonky is Australian, I believe, I just adopted it as the language I should use is inappropriate in such polite company!

Jacob,
Yes, this is the idea, we all have done batch production to expedite the making.Where do we store 10 dining tables? We've tried making lovely boxes, because a batch of those are easy to store, but there is a practical limit to what people will pay for small items so that limits how lovely you can make them and actually a very ordinary looking box exceeds most people's idea of what it should cost. How do we sell the products made speculatively? People don't come to workshops in industrial estates. Gallery's mark up doubles the price I need to take, so expensive becomes ludacrous. Trade shows are expensive and seldom get many buyers. It is a lottery and presupposes you have the money to invest (waste) on them. When you are struggling to exist at all, who does?Sometimes they generate a commission, but often just admiring glances and sharp intake of breath. People who visit those will spend on trinkets for back pocket money. Little or nothing can be made for that buyer.

Joinery is different, though there are importers of bespoke joinery nowadays. But generally if you want a new staircase you'll employ one of the joinery shops local to you. If you are competitive, you'll get some of the work that goes around. No-one has to employ local furniture makers. They might ask, but then go to John Lewis if they think they have taste and OFL if they don't care. I don't mean to go on, but unless you have tried it, you really won't understand.

And as for your 1000 pound sideboard. Make one to sell for that and see how much of a wage you can pay yourself. Could you make a 4 drawer sideboard with a cupboard either side in solid oak in a week, polished, and as you say, any good for that? You might with a 4 sider with pre-straighteners a Brookman dovetailer and wide belt sander. Don't have any of that, and a second mortgage on my house wouldn't buy them. I do things by hand tools and with simple machines. This is what I have to sell.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

To backtrack a little...

Next year the GCSE exam is changing. There is just one exam for all craft subjects, i.e. people doing fashion and textiles will do the same exam as Resistant Materials, Product design, Graphics, etc. This does two things: it precludes students doing more than one craft subject and it makes the exam a nonsense. Questions cannot be asked specific to any topic anymore, because students who do one subject cannot be expected to know about the other, so questions are going to be so none specific that knowledge of anything is going to be limited. At the same time, the practical element of the subjects have been reduced, so the exam gains the student more mark towards the GCSE grade. I work with a teacher who is setting next year's exam questions and she tells me that the exam will be mostly about paper and card, the only commonality between all the subjects and really generic questions about
Industrial production and environmental issues. We are doomed..


Mike.

My initial reaction to this is disbelief, it's just irrational, how can it possibly work!!!!

Chris

Hello,

The cynic in me tells me it is designed to fail. I don't know what else to think other than the government wants us all to learn code.

Mike.

 

[RobinBHM]

Small batch production is a non starter in furniture.

To make a sideboard at anywhere near a realistic price needs labour time down to single figures. For example make a sideboard in 8 hours, say shop rate £40/hr =£320 selling price with overheads, materials, profit, retailer mark up, vat and the price to customer is getting on for £1500. A craftsmen using classical woodworking machinery is likely to take more like 60 hours for a sideboard with drawers etc etc.

However it possible to charge £15k or much more for a kitchen. It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture. Although the size of each cabinet may vary, the set up is the same and it is still batch production of sorts.

 

[woodbrains]

Small batch production is a non starter in furniture.

To make a sideboard at anywhere near a realistic price needs labour time down to single figures. For example make a sideboard in 8 hours, say shop rate £40/hr =£320 selling price with overheads, materials, profit, retailer mark up, vat and the price to customer is getting on for £1500. A craftsmen using classical woodworking machinery is likely to take more like 60 hours for a sideboard with drawers etc etc.

However it possible to charge £15k or much more for a kitchen. It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture. Although the size of each cabinet may vary, the set up is the same and it is still batch production of sorts.

Hello,

Someone understands, yay! You couldn't tell Jacob, could you, I've been trying to explain for years? (hammer)

Mike.

 

[tomatwark]

Small batch production is a non starter in furniture.

To make a sideboard at anywhere near a realistic price needs labour time down to single figures. For example make a sideboard in 8 hours, say shop rate £40/hr =£320 selling price with overheads, materials, profit, retailer mark up, vat and the price to customer is getting on for £1500. A craftsmen using classical woodworking machinery is likely to take more like 60 hours for a sideboard with drawers etc etc.

However it possible to charge £15k or much more for a kitchen. It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture. Although the size of each cabinet may vary, the set up is the same and it is still batch production of sorts.

There is a market for small batch production but not selling on to retailers who will what at least a 40% markup and probably more on smaller value stuff.

If you can set up a good online retail site, keep it up to date and put in place a delivery service and also make sure you are not going to have problems with distance selling regs you can make money.

It is not something we do at the moment as there is more money in kitchens bedrooms and home offices as well as the other bits we do that I have already mentioned.

We have all the kit that Mike mentioned except the dovetailer and even then we would not be able to make a sideboard for a £1000 as a single piece, we would need to make at least 5 at once to make it work.

The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT and it then makes the smaller jobs you would still take on more expensive and possibly pricing you out of that market.

There is no easy solution, if there was we would all be millionaires

 

[swb58]

I saw some of this imported stuff before Christmas. Comprising good size dining table with long bench, a desk type thing and a sideboard. All made in Thailand and freshly bought from a retail outlet for more than 2k, don't know exactly which one. All the pieces have splayed legs which looks odd to say the least without considering the strength aspect.

Having read the instructions about not moving the furniture on carpeted surfaces the lady of the house thought it would be OK to move the sideboard slightly on her laminated flooring. The legs on one end gave way and the thing ended up on its side on the floor, luckily it was still empty.
Why on earth do people build such utter carp, but ultimately, why on earth do people buy it!

 

[Woodmonkey]

Why on earth do people build such utter carp, but ultimately, why on earth do people buy it

You answered your own question there I think!

 

[Steve Maskery]

Why on earth do people build such utter carp, but ultimately, why on earth do people buy it!

Because they like the look of it and think they are getting a bargain!

 

[Jacob]

"It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture."

So you don't compete with Nevill Johnson. It's gotta be different -for people who don't want what Johnson does

"but not selling on to retailers who will what at least a 40% markup and probably more on smaller value stuff."

Nobody in their right minds sells to retailers! The net has made this redundant - either your own site, ebay, Etsy etc

"The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT"
Vat limit is £83000. 4 a year and you are laughing! It should be possible for a single maker to make a good living and keep under the limit - keep turnover down but profits up with high added value of "craftsmanship".
This is one of the biggest perks - the only perk perhaps, for the single trader, effectively giving a 20% discount.

"Small batch production is a non starter in furniture."
Well it works for almost everything else manufactured in the universe. How many bespoke or one-off items do you buy in a year? For me it is zero. Lifetime of zero - I don't think I've ever bought anything made to measure. Have you?
And a lot of other crafts wouldn't dream of one-offs; a potter wants to fill a kiln, woodturners do long runs (minimum of 4 legs always needed, or 8 knobs, etc). Knitters and weavers do one-offs of course (but will repeat a good seller), but leather workers or dress makers don't need to - they can cut out for 1, 10 or 100 at a time.

"There is no easy solution, if there was we would all be millionaires"
Not easy, but making a living is possible even if you never get to be a millionaire.

 

[bugbear]

"Small batch production is a non starter in furniture." Well it works for almost everything else manufactured in the universe. How many bespoke or one-off items do you buy in a year? For me it is zero.

Yes. Your argument is sound, because the only possible alternative to small batch production is one-off. :roll:

Wait.

This is going to blow your tiny mind.

There's a thing called mass production.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

"Small batch production is a non starter in furniture." Well it works for almost everything else manufactured in the universe. How many bespoke or one-off items do you buy in a year? For me it is zero.

Yes. Your argument is sound, because the only possible alternative to small batch production is one-off. :roll:

Wait.

This is going to blow your tiny mind.

There's a thing called mass production.

BugBear

Er, what's that about? What are you trying to say BB? Some confusion here. :roll:

Happy new year BTW!

 

[RobinBHM]

"It is also possible to compete against companies like Neville Johnson for bedroom fitted furniture."

So you don't compete with Nevill Johnson. It's gotta be different -for people who don't want what Johnson does

"but not selling on to retailers who will what at least a 40% markup and probably more on smaller value stuff."

Nobody in their right minds sells to retailers! The net has made this redundant - either your own site, ebay, Etsy etc

"The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT"
Vat limit is £83000. 4 a year and you are laughing! It should be possible for a single maker to make a good living and keep under the limit - keep turnover down but profits up with high added value of "craftsmanship".
This is one of the biggest perks - the only perk perhaps, for the single trader, effectively giving a 20% discount.

"Small batch production is a non starter in furniture."
Well it works for almost everything else manufactured in the universe. How many bespoke or one-off items do you buy in a year? For me it is zero. Lifetime of zero - I don't think I've ever bought anything made to measure. Have you?
And a lot of other crafts wouldn't dream of one-offs; a potter wants to fill a kiln, woodturners do long runs (minimum of 4 legs always needed, or 8 knobs, etc). Knitters and weavers do one-offs of course (but will repeat a good seller), but leather workers or dress makers don't need to - they can cut out for 1, 10 or 100 at a time.

The key word is 'small' I doubt if you buy anything in a year that is made that way. Any Western made product is almost certainly from a highly automated factory with huge investment in CNC plant. The only affordable batch craft made items are those brought in from low wage economies.

The markup on ebay or etsi is hardly cheap. Driving traffic to a website is expensive. Packaging and delivery of furniture is expensive. It still isnt a viable business model.

not being vat registered doesnt make you 20% cheaper. It does save 20% on the added value. Keeping below the threshold is prob only possible tor a 1 man band working from a home workshop, from a businesd unit the break even point is almost certainly going to be higher than £80k

 

[tomatwark]

"The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT"
Vat limit is £83000. 4 a year and you are laughing! It should be possible for a single maker to make a good living and keep under the limit - keep turnover down but profits up with by high added value of "craftsmanship". This is one of the biggest perks - the only perk perhaps, for the single trader, giving a 20% discount.
.

Jacob

If you are selling a kitchen for £20,000 inc vat that is £ 16,666.67 ex vat x 5 = £ 83,333.35

 

[Jacob]

....
The key word is 'small' I doubt if you buy anything in a year that is made that way. Any Western made product is almost certainly from a highly automated factory with huge investment in CNC plant. The only affordable batch craft made items are those brought in from low wage economies.

We buy stuff all the time from small batch producers - food, booze etc from farmers markets and /or small shops (bakers etc) being the most regular, but also from craft producers - leather goods, bits of pottery, prints, gift-ware in general is a big one. There is a lot of stuff going on out there!

The markup on ebay or etsi is hardly cheap.

Simply not true - they are exceptionally cheap compared to most of the alternatives

Driving traffic to a website is expensive.

No it isn't. The website merely has to be interesting. No driving involved

Packaging and delivery of furniture is expensive.

But not prohibitively. It might cost £50 to get a £1000 table to 300 miles away. There are lots of services available; "Anyvan" etc

not being vat registered doesnt make you 20% cheaper. It does save 20% on the added value.

The lower your overheads (the higher your added value) the nearer you get to 20%

Keeping below the threshold is prob only possible tor a 1 man band ...

2 man perhaps, or part timers.

 

[Jacob]

"The problem with making kitchens for the one man band is the time it takes and if you are charging £20,000 or so, 5 a year and you are into charging VAT"
Vat limit is £83000. 4 a year and you are laughing! It should be possible for a single maker to make a good living and keep under the limit - keep turnover down but profits up with by high added value of "craftsmanship". This is one of the biggest perks - the only perk perhaps, for the single trader, giving a 20% discount.
.

Jacob

If you are selling a kitchen for £20,000 inc vat that is £ 16,666.67 ex vat x 5 = £ 83,333.35

Yes I worked that out too.
If you sell 4 kitchens at £20000 vat free that makes £80,000. Why make a 5th kitchen and lose all that profit paying VAT? :lol:

 

[tomatwark]

Robin

Small batch production is still possible, if is run along side other aspects to the business, eg make the doors part for the batch of side boards along side the kitchen you are running, and keep the sections the same and so on.

But also anything you do would need to be simple to make and also you would need to keep the range small.

I agree that as a stand alone business it would be hard going if not impossible.

The main reason we have avoided doing this is the delivery issues, but it is something I discussing with a customer who runs a small national delivery firm, to see if we can make it work, they move furniture all the time.

The other thing is CNC kit is coming down in price all the time and is getting into the reach of a company like mine with 7 employees, the big problem is the space some of it takes up so it means as well as the purchase costs you need to factor in the cost of larger premises.

The website promotion does not to be on the scale of a larger multi national and against the costs of say regular newspaper advertising, is not much more expensive, and is still a lot cheaper than a retail mark up or having a high street presence.

You can also target you online marketing to be more regional, which also helps with the delivery issues as well.

From talking to people about this on a small scale it is possible, it is the scaling up that is the problem, as you expand your geographical area then the delivery costs also increase, and this is where they started to struggle.

 

[Jacob]

.....
From talking to people about this on a small scale it is possible, it is the scaling up that is the problem, ...

The VAT limit is the biggest hurdle - either keep below it or make a big jump to be well above it.