Beware the cheats!

[Phil Pascoe]

There are undoubtedly "cabinet makers" like Lord Linley whose name has a certain cachet, but I wonder if much of the problem is brand snobbery where bimbo with more money than sense would rather say to her friends "this came from XYZ on Oxford Street" than "I had this purpose made by a brilliant cabinet maker in a little unit down on the industrial estate"? It isn't the item concerned that's being bought, it's the snobbery, the provenance. All the people she's showing off to will know the one but not the other. I suspect thinking this extends quite a way down the ladder. I apologise to lady readers if I appear condescending, but I suspect most furniture purchases are instigated by women.

P.s. When I win the lottery, I'm going to book Custard for the year. Fortunately, swmbo would agree 100%.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

It is a perennial problem, how to educate the buying public what quality is compared to the rubbish offerings in shops. But most makers are small outfits with no medium to educate through, they simply do not have the means for widespread education and advertisements. So the problem persists. If anyone can solve the problem, then please let us know how it is done!

Reputations are everything, but it is quite possible to never get one, even if rightly deserved. I can make the stuff for sure, but I haven't made enough of it to get the reputation, because I can't get the buying public to purchase it in the first place. It is a vicious cycle. Now I haven't the years left to get a reputation.

I don't blame (much) those of little means from buying British made things, though I do think they should buy better quality used furniture, as less well off people did, but seem not to do so much now. But the other great sin of the 21st century means that people have to have new, fashionable stuff and change it regularly. Used stuff is only fit for the dump, the quality is so poor.

The only solution I can see is for government legislation preventing the cutting of British manufacturing business' throats, by cheap imports. It is all well and good, legislating for safer working environments, fair wages, less polluting energy production and manufacturing processes, limiting working hours and having statutory holidays, child care, etc. etc. for workers in Europe, when goods can be imported from countries who do not have any of these human rights. Our manufacturing gets priced out of the Stratosphere before it can even think of profit and sustainability, and the foreign manufacturers, who do not worry about any of this, are unsurprisingly cheap. We should not allow imports from any manufacturer who does not comply with the same basic standards as we do in the West. When all is equal, then global human rights will be better, the global environment will be better and we would all have jobs. Except perhaps for those talentless morons who seem to think they can become wealthy by simply owning a flexible conscience.

Mike.

I think the solution is also in your hands Mike (on a micro level).One of the reasons the public cannot spot quality in a product is that as a child they are no longer taught how things are made. Craft education nowadays is about design not making so the concept of quality is not an input. It also mens they have no idea how long it takes to make something properly.

Working in a school as you do Mike I'm sure your students will come out with a sound concept of quality. More power to your elbow!

Chris

Hello,

I thought exactly the same. I recently moved schools from an all girls school to a mixed, in the hope that I could inspire some of the lads too. I think I made a big mistake! I cannot believe how many 16 year old lads cannot even use a cordless drill. Many have never used a saw! It is clear the level of crafts teaching at that school has been poor to date, but never the less, some awareness of basic under the sink tools should be there, surely.

Next year the GCSE exam is changing. There is just one exam for all craft subjects, i.e. people doing fashion and textiles will do the same exam as Resistant Materials, Product design, Graphics, etc. This does two things: it precludes students doing more than one craft subject and it makes the exam a nonsense. Questions cannot be asked specific to any topic anymore, because students who do one subject cannot be expected to know about the other, so questions are going to be so none specific that knowledge of anything is going to be limited. At the same time, the practical element of the subjects have been reduced, so the exam gains the student more mark towards the GCSE grade. I work with a teacher who is setting next year's exam questions and she tells me that the exam will be mostly about paper and card, the only commonality between all the subjects and really generic questions about
Industrial production and environmental issues. We are doomed..


Mike.

 

[craigs]

Hello,

It is a perennial problem, how to educate the buying public what quality is compared to the rubbish offerings in shops. But most makers are small outfits with no medium to educate through, they simply do not have the means for widespread education and advertisements. So the problem persists. If anyone can solve the problem, then please let us know how it is done!

Reputations are everything, but it is quite possible to never get one, even if rightly deserved. I can make the stuff for sure, but I haven't made enough of it to get the reputation, because I can't get the buying public to purchase it in the first place. It is a vicious cycle. Now I haven't the years left to get a reputation.

I don't blame (much) those of little means from buying British made things, though I do think they should buy better quality used furniture, as less well off people did, but seem not to do so much now. But the other great sin of the 21st century means that people have to have new, fashionable stuff and change it regularly. Used stuff is only fit for the dump, the quality is so poor.

The only solution I can see is for government legislation preventing the cutting of British manufacturing business' throats, by cheap imports. It is all well and good, legislating for safer working environments, fair wages, less polluting energy production and manufacturing processes, limiting working hours and having statutory holidays, child care, etc. etc. for workers in Europe, when goods can be imported from countries who do not have any of these human rights. Our manufacturing gets priced out of the Stratosphere before it can even think of profit and sustainability, and the foreign manufacturers, who do not worry about any of this, are unsurprisingly cheap. We should not allow imports from any manufacturer who does not comply with the same basic standards as we do in the West. When all is equal, then global human rights will be better, the global environment will be better and we would all have jobs. Except perhaps for those talentless morons who seem to think they can become wealthy by simply owning a flexible conscience.

Mike.

I think the solution is also in your hands Mike (on a micro level).One of the reasons the public cannot spot quality in a product is that as a child they are no longer taught how things are made. Craft education nowadays is about design not making so the concept of quality is not an input. It also mens they have no idea how long it takes to make something properly.

Working in a school as you do Mike I'm sure your students will come out with a sound concept of quality. More power to your elbow!

Chris

Hello,

I thought exactly the same. I recently moved schools from an all girls school to a mixed, in the hope that I could inspire some of the lads too. I think I made a big mistake! I cannot believe how many 16 year old lads cannot even use a cordless drill. Many have never used a saw! It is clear the level of crafts teaching at that school has been poor to date, but never the less, some awareness of basic under the sink tools should be there, surely.

Next year the GCSE exam is changing. There is just one exam for all craft subjects, i.e. people doing fashion and textiles will do the same exam as Resistant Materials, Product design, Graphics, etc. This does two things: it precludes students doing more than one craft subject and it makes the exam a nonsense. Questions cannot be asked specific to any topic anymore, because students who do one subject cannot be expected to know about the other, so questions are going to be so none specific that knowledge of anything is going to be limited. At the same time, the practical element of the subjects have been reduced, so the exam gains the student more mark towards the GCSE grade. I work with a teacher who is setting next year's exam questions and she tells me that the exam will be mostly about paper and card, the only commonality between all the subjects and really generic questions about
Industrial production and environmental issues. We are doomed..


Mike.

hahaha you would be surprised at how many up-to-40 year olds I know that don't even own basic tools or have any idea how to repair anything. It's kind of scary.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I remember reading a letter in The Times from a guy saying he ran a light engineering firm and that he much preferred to train people as he had been trained - an apprenticeship. His problem was that he taking on sixteen year olds who had never held a hammer and who didn't know what a file was - and expecting them to be engineers in three or four years. It couldn't be done properly, if at all.

 

[SteveF]

hahaha you would be surprised at how many up-to-40 year olds I know that don't even own basic tools or have any idea how to repair anything. It's kind of scary

I had to go to a neighbours house over the break to fit a tv bracket
lightweight bracket \ tv 4 wall screws so nothing special
tried to explain to measure down from tv top to top of bracket so could get ideal height

gave up explaining, had bacon sarnie & cup of tea, 20 minutes to get tools out drill wall pack tools

I do wonder how some people survive

Steve

 

[lurker]

Dont understand why we are "blaming" the Schools, I can't remember doing a great deal there 45 and more years ago.
I learnt mine at home from my Dad.
As did my own sons.

Teachers are not substitute parents but suppliments.

 

[Racers]

I didn't do well in woodwork or metalwork at school and didn't have a Dad to learn from.

Pete

 

[Hot stuff]

A lot of ability is either inherent or innate and personal circumstances can determine whether or not it is ever recognised or used to its full potential. You can have a good teacher or a bad one, you can have an encouraging domestic situation or not. A lot of it is surely luck?

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

We are not blaming schools, just stating what the situation is. It is government policy that dictates what is taught at schools and it is clear that government policy is not to promote craft subjects. It seems to think that someone with an innate ability to be good at making things will abandon the notion and become a coder instead, as if the populous is just some sort of lump of clay to be moulded any way the government wants.

And is it any wonder that no parents instill the ability to make things when for the last couple of generations, schools have not taught the subject with any rigour or even direction. The attitude by most schools is that craft is some sort of distraction from the real work, or a subject taken by the underachieving wastrels. My last school recruited a new teacher who had a designer maker degree. She was absolutely blooming clueless.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

......

As a UK woodworker, I couldn't help but feel that people were being deliberately misled and thought I should flag it up here to see what other people think about it. It makes our lives harder because it alters public opinion against UK makers if they draw a direct comparison between this sort of company and one manufacturing in the UK!

Plenty of tat being made in the UK too - it's not all imported!
But I don't think it's an issue; with experience a lot of sensible people learn to spot the difference, sometimes the hard way, especially when things fall apart!
Tat has always been with us and I wouldn't be surprised if even great entrepreneurs like Chippendale also made tatty stuff for the low end of the market, and everything in between
The mistake some UK woodworkers seem to make is to imagine that the only alternative is "fine furniture" (with fussy overworked dovetails, or "in the style of Krenov" :lol: ), but in fact there's a whole range of possibilities for making good quality stuff, even for small or one-man operations.
Don't blame the punters or the importers of tat; blame yourself for not rising to the challenge - and maybe do a design course?

PS and keep your eyes open e.g. Brian's FB page is good on ideas - scroll down and you will see a wide range of stuff from very dubious to very good design and craft, a lot of it small business produced.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WoodworkProjects/

PPS and also blame the government for business rates, high rents, high housing costs, benefits trap, etc etc all of which make self employment difficult and uncompetitive. And blame govt for lack of investment in design/craft training and education at all levels.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob, clearly in some sort of parallel universe to the rest of us.

I simply cannot make a side board, employing the most deplorably poor methods of expediency and shonkyness to sell for 250 pounds like oak furniture land can. I cannot do it for twice the cost. 3 times the cost and I might just pay workshop overheads, materials, electricity, running costs of the workshop, but little else. What sort of miracle will attending a design course provide? And why would I want to make shonky sideboards when I can make nice ones. Am I to remain poor and unhappy in my work? But the public perception will be that it is too expensive because they see 250 pound sideboards every day.

Someone explain why almost every maker I can think of has to teach to make ends meet. Thought of doing the same, but who in their right mind would pay for instruction from a concrete industrial unit in Birkenhead? Please, if you have nothing constructive to say, then keep the platitudes to yourself. It is not as if anything you say hasn't been thought of before, contemplated, mulled over, stretched, considered backwards and contrarywise by every maker in the country.

Before I quit my workshop I was asked for some quotes for work that really illustrates the situation. I had done some built in, pained furniture for a particular couple who lived in a fabulous Georgian property with bedrooms as big as my house's entire floorplan. She asked would I meet her to discuss some bedroom furniture and I arrived, not too hopeful to be honest, but enthusiastic all the same. She wanted a 10 drawer ( 5 by 5 double ) chest of drawers, a double wardrobe, 2 bedside cabinets- drawers over cupboard, a kneehole dressing table - 2 banks of drawers with mirror and stool and a blanket chest. Her budget was £5000 and she wanted it American Black Walnut. WTF.

Another was from a couple who lived in just about the most affluent part of the Wirral you could want. In their driveway was an Aston Martin DB7, a Porsche Carrera, a Range Rover and a late model Toyota something for a run about. A similar sort of cabinet job and I was referred to them from their interior designer, who I had a good relationship with. Baulked at my (already subsistence low) quote.

I dunno what the solution is

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob, clearly in some sort of parallel universe to the rest of us.

I simply cannot make a side board, employing the most deplorably poor methods of expediency and shonkyness to sell for 250 pounds like oak furniture land can. I cannot do it for twice the cost. 3 times the cost and I might just pay workshop overheads, materials, electricity, running costs of the workshop, but little else. What sort of miracle will attending a design course provide? And why would I want to make shonky sideboards when I can make nice ones. Am I to remain poor and unhappy in my work? But the public perception will be that it is too expensive because they see 250 pound sideboards every day.

Someone explain why almost every maker I can think of has to teach to make ends meet. Thought of doing the same, but who in their right mind would pay for instruction from a concrete industrial unit in Birkenhead? Please, if you have nothing constructive to say, then keep the platitudes to yourself. It is not as if anything you say hasn't been thought of before, contemplated, mulled over, stretched, considered backwards and contrarywise by every maker in the country.

Before I quit my workshop I was asked for some quotes for work that really illustrates the situation. I had done some built in, pained furniture for a particular couple who lived in a fabulous Georgian property with bedrooms as big as my house's entire floorplan. She asked would I meet her to discuss some bedroom furniture and I arrived, not too hopeful to be honest, but enthusiastic all the same. She wanted a 10 drawer ( 5 by 5 double ) chest of drawers, a double wardrobe, 2 bedside cabinets- drawers over cupboard, a kneehole dressing table - 2 banks of drawers with mirror and stool and a blanket chest. Her budget was £5000 and she wanted it American Black Walnut. WTF.

Another was from a couple who lived in just about the most affluent part of the Wirral you could want. In their driveway was an Aston Martin DB7, a Porsche Carrera, a Range Rover and a late model Toyota something for a run about. A similar sort of cabinet job and I was referred to them from their interior designer, who I had a good relationship with. Baulked at my (already subsistence low) quote.

I dunno what the solution is

Mike.

 

[Mr T]

PPS and also blame the government for business rates, high rents, high housing costs, benefits trap, etc etc all of which make self employment difficult and uncompetitive. And blame govt for lack of investment in design/craft training and education at all levels.

While we're in the blame game. I blame Margaret Thatcher, who better! I believe it was she that ushered in the dismemberment of the apprentice system. The apprentice ethos not only taught people how to do the job, it also instilled a discipline, an understanding of quality and the idea that quality was degraded if you cut corners. My first evening class teaching was at Stocksbridge, a steel town near Sheffield, most of the students were retired workers from the steel works who had done apprenticeships years ago. The aprenticeships may have been in engineering but the approach and attitude towards the wo were completely transferable. They were ar joy to teach. In fact I felt a little inadequate as I never did an apprenticeship.

Dont understand why we are "blaming" the Schools, I can't remember doing a great deal there 45 and more years ago.
I learnt mine at home from my Dad.
As did my own sons.

Teachers are not substitute parents but suppliments.

What sort of school did you attend Lurker? I am still using some of the skills and concepts I learnt at Swanmor Secondary Modern school back in 1964. Measuring and marking, datum surfaces, sawing and planing square. I wonder if the grammar school lads had the same input. Of course the girls did needlework!

Chris

 

[Mr T]

shonkyness .

!!!!

What exactly is shonkyness Mike . Scouser slang?

Chris

 

[Steve Maskery]

We didn't do woodwork at (Cheadle Grammar) school, either, although there was a woodwork shop. I did do two years of metalwork, the most of which I remember being tore off a strip by Mr Aspey for cutting three pieces of 30mm diameter steel at 30mm long instead of 15mm long. He made me cut them again by hand with a blunt hacksaw. It took me three weeks and taught me nothing about metalwork (although, I suppose, a little about diligence).

We did do Technical Drawing to 'O' level though.

I'm mainly self-taught. My dad was a cabinet-maker and my granddad a pattern-maker, so I was rather born with a wooden mallet in my mouth. But Dad always said he would cut off our hands if we became woodies, so apart from whatever osmosis took place as a child, all my learning has been done as an adult.

Dad died 20 years ago, and I remember taking one of my new dining chairs into the hospital to show him. He expressed approval, so I don't think I disappointed him too much. Well, not in that way, anyway!

 

[Jacob]

...
I simply cannot make a side board, employing the most deplorably poor methods of expediency and shonkyness to sell for 250 pounds like oak furniture land can. I cannot do it for twice the cost. 3 times the cost and I might just pay workshop overheads, materials, electricity, running costs of the workshop, but little else. What sort of miracle will attending a design course provide? And why would I want to make shonky sideboards when I can make nice ones. Am I to remain poor and unhappy in my work? But the public perception will be that it is too expensive because they see 250 pound sideboards every day.

If it's any good somebody will buy it even for £1000.
You aren't competing with importers of cheap stuff it's a different market. You wouldn't set up a restaurant to compete with McDonalds - you'd do what 1000s of successful little restaurants do - offer something very different, much better but more expensive.
Personally I do think "bespoke" etc is a boggler. It means clients with "ideas" :roll: . Much better to simply make and sell, ideally in runs, for economy of scale (i.e. MORE PROFIT!!).
Or in my case to offer just one standard of service which was either to repair, or do only perfect replicas, of period joinery. No double glazing, nor brown windows, no compromise, etc etc. Not that I got rich but I could have if I'd worked it out a bit sooner! I'm now retired more or less but selling the occasional item at quite good prices.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

An acquaintance was asked to price an outdoor job for someone, and spoke to her daughter. The girl asked how much he was thinking to charge, and he said off the top of his head and allowing for a bit of creep £2500. Oh, said the girl, you won't get the job then. You need to charge at least £8000 because her neighbour paid £7500 for hers. He couldn't bring himself to do it.

 

[tomatwark]

We make very little freestanding furniture now as the likes of OFL have killed the market.

When we are asked to do it I will always give a ball park price off the top of my head when customers come in and that tends to get rid of the £250 pound sideboard time wasters, and then I know that once I have priced and drawn the job up fully I stand a reasonable chance of getting it and making money.

Most of our work is fitted at the moment either by my fitter or sold onto joiners who no longer have the workshops to make bits themselves.

If some one wants a solid Oak table and chairs and are willing to pay for it we will make it, or if someone wants a set of MDF bookcases for their joiner to fit and then for them to paint themselves we will make that as well.

The machinery will do both so why not do both.

Most of my apprenticeship was spent making one off reproduction Mahogany furniture, but there is no or little market for it now, so I moved on to other things and now employ 7 people.

A lot of the designer makers you see around either have managed to get a reputation through a lot of hard work and to some extend luck ( I mean being in the right place at the right time and not as an insult), or have come into this later in life having had another career such as the police or military and have a pension to help them out.

If you look at history there have only been a small amount of high end makers at any one time and the rest have been doing every day stuff, the local joiner would have made a lot of your furniture at one time.

 

[andersonec]

Its rife through out manufactured goods

All of these "lies" are a fraud but where do you go for a remedy?
The party of free enterprise (tories) have essentially removed trading standards and folks monitoring imports so no manufacturer in the UK is competing on a level playing field.

AND we the public have no one protecting us from dangerous goods any more.

Here is just one weeks dangerous rubbish that has been spotted by the authorities (tip of an iceberg)
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers ... &Year=2016

Manufacturing in this country died because it was cheaper to do it elsewhere and this happens whoever is in government and HSE was being introduced into this country before the EU got started, who do you blame for accidents like this one in the US?

http://news.sky.com/story/toddler-saves ... s-10716529

 

[Jacob]

.... I am still using some of the skills and concepts I learnt at Swanmor Secondary Modern school back in 1964. Measuring and marking, datum surfaces, sawing and planing square. I wonder if the grammar school lads had the same input. Of course the girls did needlework!

Chris

Yep we got the same at grammar school back in 1956. But the less "academic" also did metal work as well as woodwork - which just goes to show how out of touch grammar schools were, situated as we were in the industrial heartlands, with Rolls Royce (Aero) just down the road, Sheffield just up the road, etc.