Best dovetail saw

[keithkarl2007]

Over the last 10 months I've been trying to perfect my dovetailing ,first i tried David Barons kit and found i could cut perfect joints almost straight away . If you just want to get the job done this is a very good way. But i then wanted to see if i could do it without the aid of the jig. So i tried lots of old saws and with plenty of practice i managed to get some good results. I tried the verities saws and for me they felt a little awkward and uncomfortable. After using the new lie neilson at the Yandles show i found this was perfect for me . So i guess you need to try out as many saws as you can before you find the one that suits you best.heres some of the practice pieces dovetail marking gauges.

Hope this Helps

Cheers Bern

Ooh I like them. There's just something about using tools made from wood that I love. I've seen metal winding sticks somewhere but I'd always prefer the wooden equivalent.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The templates look great Burn, I love the group photo.

You are right try saws (and other tools) for yourself if possible, they are such a personal thing what works for one person may not work for another.

Cheers Peter

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?

BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).

Thanks

Richard

Generally speaking, smaller teeth for smaller work. A saw with 20tpi would be ideal if your usual work was small jewellery boxes, small drawers with sides of 3/8" (10mm) or less; 15tpi is a good all-rounder, and something like 11 - 12tpi would be ideal for larger dovetail work such as carcase sides of about 7/8" to 1" (22 - 25mm) thick, especially if you gang-cut them - hence the old term 'carcase saw' for a saw of about 12" length with about 12tpi.

Unless you're doing a lot of dovetailing work of great variety, it's not really worth having a saw for every duty. Most people find that a saw of 8" to 10" long with about 15tpi covers all they need, with the added bonus that it'll cut small tenons and suchlike as well. Handles are very personal; some prefer the open pistol type, some the closed type, and some the straight gent's saw type. (If I were starting again, I'd buy a really good vintage 10" saw and refurbish it, recutting teeth if necessary, and supplement it with a small 6" gent's saw of about 20tpi for really tiny work. However, refurbishing saws is something of a hobby in itself, and it's unlikely that really good results will be obtained with a first attempt. For the person that just wants to work wood, buying a new, sharp, saw is probably the better bet.)

The best bet is to invest in a saw you really like the look of, and use it often to get to know it's foibles. It's practice with a decent tool that builds skill, rather than buying a fabulously expensive tool and expecting instant perfect results (which won't happen without the practice!).

Edit to add - rip cut teeth are best for a dovetail saw. As the teeth are small, you'll find it'll cross-cut quite effectively too. There's no need for a rip and a cross-cut saw. The other advantage is that rip-filed teeth are easier to sharpen than cross-cut when that need arises.

 

[richarddownunder]

Thanks for your replies and advice. A 15 tpi rip may be the best all-round saw then. I'm interested in Peters pear-handle Pax 1776 ones, so I'll stay tuned for the 15 tpi version. Lovely dovetail pictures by the way...wish I was that neat! I need to do some practice obviously.

Thanks

Richard

 

[swagman]

Hi Richard. For fine joinery and carcass work 14 - 16tpi is good target to aim for. You also don't want a heavy tooth set. One that just clears each side of the saw plate is ideal.

A saw plate thickness of 0.020" would also be a good recommendation.

A rake angle of (-)10* will also make the saw more compatible to both rip and crosscut work.

Stewie;

 

[rafezetter]

These are pretty good:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tamiya-74024- ... 51ae9bb2e0

Blade is 6" long, 1" depth of cut. Mine arrived in less than a week. You get a spare blade.
Very fine blade and very fine kerf. Perfectly adequate for average density hardwood up to 1/2" thick. Also good for box makers etc. Throwaway when it's blunt.
I also have a Veritas saw at 14 TPI, which does come very sharp. Some may not like the light weight but it doesn't bother me - same with the Japanese saws, they are obviously very light.
There you have it. Anything from £6 to the £50-£60 for the Veritas. Plenty of other choices between the two.

I've used something very similar to the one above, for scale modelling and they do indeed give extremely thin kerf cuts, 0.40mm to be precise with no set - not used it for dovetails, but I have used it to separate scale model components like moulded car doors and such where the cut has to be super accurate, so would work just as well for dovetails. My version is also not induction hardened so I'm guessing it could be re-sharpened if you had the skill and patience.

 

[wellywood]

Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?

BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).

Thanks

Richard

I'm just south of you, in the Hutt. I bought a Pax 1776 10" 15ppi direct from Thos Flynn via their website. Had to wait a few weeks for a production run but I figure that's a good sign that the saws don't hang around on shelves waiting for buyers.
Very pleased with it.

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi Wellywood

thats good to hear. I'll go with the Pax 1776 as well - probably go with the pear handled version discussed above. BTW, like the name. Palmywood doesn't quite work!

Cheers
Richard

Hi...quick question. You mention that this is a 15 tpi dovetail saw. I've been wondering what tpi to get and the review you mention states thet the Pax 1776 has 20 tpi. I gather sharpening 20 tpi is more of a mission but it gives a smoother cut. Can anyone please corect these assumptions?

BTW, any recommendations where to purchase...I'm in New Zealand and don't think there are any agents locally (who will sell at a reasonable price).

Thanks

Richard

I'm just south of you, in the Hutt. I bought a Pax 1776 10" 15ppi direct from Thos Flynn via their website. Had to wait a few weeks for a production run but I figure that's a good sign that the saws don't hang around on shelves waiting for buyers.
Very pleased with it.

 

[Jacob]

Best value of all is the S&J 8" dt saw. They are still cheap on ebay £10 or less. Usually about 18 tpi. Blade is 0.5mm 0.020" thick. Excellent classic little saw.

 

[richarddownunder]

Best value of all is the S&J 8" dt saw. They are still cheap on ebay £10 or less. Usually about 18 tpi. Blade is 0.5mm 0.020" thick. Excellent classic little saw.

I'm sure they are good, and plentiful too in UK. In these here parts, not so much. Its a matter of buying on e-bay and posting at great cost. Last time I did that I ended up with lemon of a block plane from the US quite different to the one pictured. So, lesson learned, I either get things locally which are more limited in number, or buy new. Usually from our friends Thomas Flinn.

Cheers
Richard

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi

I've been reading some of Pauls Sellars woodwork blog - the more I read, the more I get frustrated :evil: . He seems to be scathing of British saws (and pretty much all British toolmakers) and seems to take every opportunity to have a dig - they an't what they used to be, essentially, in nearly every post. Whether or not he has a valid point (and he probably has in general), I feel the comments are quite destructiuve to the good UK tool makers, some of which we have discussed in this thread. Does anyone else feel the same? The problem is as he is so prolific, his posts seem to be the first the pop up in Google. I have received my Pax 1776 and think it is of very good standard and I bet it is as good as the Veritas he promotes so freely.

The type of comment I am questioning include statements like this "I don’t generally recommend British makers any more because they have forsaken standards set by early makers to pump out saws less exacting than those made in the USA or Canada. "

There are those who would disagree I imagine.

Cheers
Richard

 

[swagman]

H Richard. Unfortunately the Free Market System has exposed the U.Ks high cost of manufacturing. Something Maggie should have considered further during the 1980s.

Australia is not immune to those same cost issues.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch37-thatcher.htm

Although seen as a strong advocate for the Free Market System, some policies by U.S. tend to favour self protectionism.

http://mises.org/library/ronald-reagan-protectionist

Stewie;

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi Stewie

Thanks for the links.

I've read similar before and the end result is prices are higher for UK or Australian (or NZ)-made goods. However, its not entirely the price I'm on about. US forum contributors and teachers (have you ever seen one use anything but a Lie Nielsen in demos) etc are extremely patriotic. They have good tools so why not. There ARE some good UK manufacturers by the looks of it (I'm no expert but I've bought some really nice tools over the past few years), just as good as the US manufacturers that I have seen, granted, that isn't so many - most of the bad British makers have gone under by now. Its the good makers I feel for. It must be very discouraging to have vocal commentators make comments such as the one I posted which damns the whole industry and if there is one way to ensure its failure, it seems to me, that is it.

So, yes, it is an uneven playing field heavily tilted to the US. However, there are plenty of UK manufacturers who manage too, from what I have seen of scientific (my area really) equipment etc coming out of the UK, quality is generally on the up.

I guess I'm passionate about British tools having collected them since I was a kid. The tools i have are like old friends and I just don't like to see such a prominent voice running down manufacturers (by implication) I believe are striving for a quality product under difficult circumstances. Phew, glad that is off my chest!

Cheers
Richard

 

[Andy Kev.]

I took up woodworking just under two years ago and found myself wondering, as a Brit, where on earth all the top quality British tool makers were. My main source of information was the internet, as it probably is for most people these days.

I think there may be a number of reasons for the too low profile of British toolmakers. Firstly, we seem to lack the genius for marketing that is omnipresent in N. America. For instance, just have a look at the Lee Valley catalogue: it has you drooling over what's on offer and the range of things offered is fantastic. Where is the British retailer who can hold a candle to that?

Second, the Americans embraced the industrialisation of everything much quicker than we did. They don't seem to have our natural conservatism. I get the impression that writers like Christopher Schwarz looked into the electrical/mechanical abyss, had a fright and then became evangelical about hand tools. Perhaps we just take their presence for granted and so don't preach about them enough.

Third, it does seem a terrible shame that the leading British internet presence is running down British tools. The best response to this is to demand evidence for his assertions. Are Veritas saws demonstrably better than their Pax equivalents? Are LN and Veritas planes streets ahead of Clifton planes? I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the answer is "probably not as they are all roughly of the same quality".

Everybody benefits from firms on both sides of the Atlantic striving to up their standards and break new boundaries of quality and if a firm is not up to scratch, then we need to hear it. Ideally the UK needs its own internet megastar - not with a view to running down N American toolmakers (which would be absurd) but rather with a view to redressing the balance, raising profiles and singing praises where they are due.

 

[richarddownunder]

I took up woodworking just under two years ago and found myself wondering, as a Brit, where on earth all the top quality British tool makers were. My main source of information was the internet, as it probably is for most people these days.

I think there may be a number of reasons for the too low profile of British toolmakers. Firstly, we seem to lack the genius for marketing that is omnipresent in N. America. For instance, just have a look at the Lee Valley catalogue: it has you drooling over what's on offer and the range of things offered is fantastic. Where is the British retailer who can hold a candle to that?

Second, the Americans embraced the industrialisation of everything much quicker than we did. They don't seem to have our natural conservatism. I get the impression that writers like Christopher Schwarz looked into the electrical/mechanical abyss, had a fright and then became evangelical about hand tools. Perhaps we just take their presence for granted and so don't preach about them enough.

Third, it does seem a terrible shame that the leading British internet presence is running down British tools. The best response to this is to demand evidence for his assertions. Are Veritas saws demonstrably better than their Pax equivalents? Are LN and Veritas planes streets ahead of Clifton planes? I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the answer is "probably not as they are all roughly of the same quality".


Everybody benefits from firms on both sides of the Atlantic striving to up their standards and break new boundaries of quality and if a firm is not up to scratch, then we need to hear it. Ideally the UK needs its own internet megastar - not with a view to running down N American toolmakers (which would be absurd) but rather with a view to redressing the balance, raising profiles and singing praises where they are due.

EXACTLY what I mean, but much more eloquently put than my post. Tool reviews on both side of the Atlantic really suggest that the good UK tool makers are just as good.

In other areas, where technology has been adopted and merged with traditional techniques, you get fantastic results like Air Arms air guns if anyone cares to look them up. Small British manufacturing companies can make word-leading products even when economics are stacked against them and there is an example.

Cheers
Richard

Cheers
Richard

 

[mouppe]

I follow Paul Sellers' blog and I think you are confusing two of his principal themes. The first is that he rubbishes previously good manufacturers such as Nicholson because their current quality is no good. The second is that he doesn't recommend premium makers such as LN because you can get a vintage plane to do as good a job. I don't think I've ever seen him denigrate Clifton or Pax specifically.

He does seem to generally hold Veritas in high regard however. I think this may be because he spent so many years living in North America and kitted out his teaching schools during this time, Lee Valley would probably have been one of the best sources for him.

 

[mouppe]

Also I can tell you as a Canadian that despite the majority of my tools being from this side of the Atlantic, the British influence in terms of writers, history, techniques etc. is enormous. Just look at C. Schwarz's book on campaign furniture last year for example. F&C is the only magazine I subscribe to.

Just one further thing to bear in mind is that Paul Sellers is sometimes writing with a readership over here in mind, and the Veritas saw is only about £40 here. I think he recommends it as being excellent value at that price.

 

[jimi43]

Whilst I don't disagree with the need to support home industry...I think that the industry itself in the UK petered out with mass production and foreign imports and Paul and others were justified...at the time...for going overseas for fine performing saws.

However...the increased interest in hand tools...is particularly welcoming and has resulted in a market for specialist toolmakers to start to emerge and hopefully this trend will continue.

I recently did a review of one such saw maker...SKELTON SAWS...as part of a very kind pass around and I was thrilled that not only was the old English saw maker's skills alive...but it was very well thank you and living in Yorkshire!

In the review, I mentioned that had I not already owned a beautiful TWO LAWYERS TOOLWORKS dovetail saw I would be getting one of these fine British saws.....

Ok...I lied...and since it's my birthday soon...(my excuse and I'm sticking to it)...I didn't get one...but two...um..these two actually....

I will be reviewing the new carcass saw too soon....but for now...rest assured....there are some really high spec British saws...hand made in the traditional way to the formula that both Shane of Skelton Saws...and I feel was the pinnacle of our ancient craft.

Add to this the Thomas Flinn company still make a fine production saw...still at an affordable price and still exporting TO the Americas....and their marketing seems to be doing well enough for discerning customers....enough for them to take over another great British maker...but that's another story entirely! :wink:

So...nil desperandum......we might not shout from the tree tops...we may use traditional materials and methods and not modern synthetics....but we still make them...and thankfully still do a bleedin' good job!

Jimi

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi Mouppe , no I don't think he names names. I guess its the sweeping statements that I noticed like the one I quoted "I don’t generally recommend British makers any more because they have forsaken standards set by early makers to pump out saws less exacting than those made in the USA or Canada. "

Of course he can have a preference for Veritas, they are apparently very good (but there are folk on this forum much better placed to say that from experience than I am) and I really like the innovative side of that company. Good for him on promoting second-hand or refurbished tools, not griping with that either. But, unless I'm completely missing the point, the quote speaks for itself.

 

[Jacob]

Whilst I don't disagree with the need to support home industry...I think that the industry itself in the UK petered out with mass production and foreign imports a...

I think the hand tool industry petered out with the massive decline in hand work. Whilst there was demand on an industrial scale the quality was kept up but demand was falling off rapidly from the 50s onwards. The old names are still around but making modern machine tools with just a few hand tools on the side.