Baby Wadkin Bursgreen in California: Advice on an AGS10

[KT_NorCal]

Here's a few more photos.

Hopefully of some use.

Cheers, Merlin

Hi Merlin,
Looks like mine was drilled and tapped for the hand brake... also the motor support plate has the right slots/holes in it as well. Just no brake.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Yes that is the version. The zero can be adjusted by removing that box cover at the bottom.

Keith

I ended up lapping the front of it to get it flat and then measured with a machinists square I was able to borrow... it's close but not exact. I pulled the box with the spring loaded pin off again and managed to strip out one of the little hex head screws so will need to replace that, but there doesn't seem to be any adjustment ability. Did you just wallow out the screw holes in the "box" to get some adjustment ability or was there some built in on yours?

Kevin

 

[Vann]

... I would have a hard time believing the 79, 80 or other designations are not indicative of the year though. The PO of mine said they bought it for sure in late 79 or early 80, since that is when they acquired most of their machinery, so that would track to this being a late 79 or so saw for sure.

Wallace has a website with info to date Wadkins manufactured at their Green Lane works. For years it was thought that the first two digits of the Test Number (not the Serial Number) was the year of manufacture - but wallace obtained info that disproved the theory (since verified from other sources).

However, Wadkin-Bursgreen machines use a different numbering system. Anything made at one of the former Bursgreen factories (such as the AGS and BGS - in fact just about anything that starts with a B). I believe that the first two digits of the Serial Number DO indicate the year of manufacture for Bursgreen machines.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[KT_NorCal]

- in fact just about anything that starts with a B). I believe that the first two digits of the Serial Number DO indicate the year of manufacture for Bursgreen machines.

Cheers, Vann.

It would make sense in my mind. I have a BER2 that is a "77" and the purchase history tracks to that being the year it was bought as well...

 

[KT_NorCal]

Anyone have any thoughts on how this "fine adjust" wheel comes off this fence? I assume the shaft itself was pushed though the cast part of the fence and then the black handle was pressed on. There is a bronze (I assume) bushing in the cast portion so that the shaft is a moderate slip fit (so it can be pulled in and out) and then the handle seems to be on there pretty good. There is another bronze looking bushing in the handle as well. Figured I would ask in case anyone has removed/replaced one of these before. Would rather not mess it up doing something stupid.

K

 

[skelph]

We've just had to replace the fine adjuster on the Wadkin machine in our (still to be completed) Mens Shed because past users had stripped the teeth on the drive cog. I just used an appropriately sized parallel pin punch on the cog end to gently tap the unit out.
There were two bronze bushes in the casting where the smooth shaft passed through it which came out easily enough. One of the members made a new shaft complete with the drive cog and we put it back in place using the original bushes and a new knob (we couldn't get the original knob off the shaft to re-use it). We used a clamp to press the new unit into place.
Hope this helps.
skelph

 

[MusicMan]

[/quote]
Hi Keith,
I actually had that bit apart and there is no adjustment built into it... I can see possibly wallowing out the screw holes in the bottom of it a bit to give me a little movement, but otherwise this one at least doesn't seem to allow for anything as is. Will take it apart and post a pic.
[/quote]

I just had a look. You are right, there is no adjuster per se, but I found there was enough wiggle room on the screws that you mention, to get it square. IIRC the protractor on the body was good enough, for any more you will have to wait till you get a good square or can run the machine.

Keith

 

[KT_NorCal]

We've just had to replace the fine adjuster on the Wadkin machine in our (still to be completed) Mens Shed because past users had stripped the teeth on the drive cog. I just used an appropriately sized parallel pin punch on the cog end to gently tap the unit out.
There were two bronze bushes in the casting where the smooth shaft passed through it which came out easily enough. One of the members made a new shaft complete with the drive cog and we put it back in place using the original bushes and a new knob (we couldn't get the original knob off the shaft to re-use it). We used a clamp to press the new unit into place.
Hope this helps.
skelph

Hmmm, intersting. For my own clarity:
1. you tapped the whole assembly out from the inside... the "geared" end then dragged the two bronze bushingings out with it? Didn't even think to look and see if the business end cleared the inside hole diameter, so that might make things easier.

2. When you reassembled did you press the bushings back in then thread the rod though? I assume so if you then used a clamp to press the handle on.

The first part could solve getting it out of the casting for me, but I would need to devise some way to get the bushings back in. Do you know if they were seperated or were they butting up against one another? If the latter, it probally would work without too much trouble. I have access to an arbor press, so could press the whole thing back through (in theory).

Thanks for the insight!

Kevin

PS: "Men's shed" is probably the most outstanding name for a members club ever if that is what it is. ha! It a woodworking/maker lab sort of set up?

 

[KT_NorCal]

I just had a look. You are right, there is no adjuster per se, but I found there was enough wiggle room on the screws that you mention, to get it square. IIRC the protractor on the body was good enough, for any more you will have to wait till you get a good square or can run the machine.

Keith

Yea, I was able to take it to a machine shop at the local junior college near me and use one of their squares (was there doing other projects, so brought it along) and was able to get it locked square using the lock knob... the pin at 90 degrees just allowed it to wobble off of 90, so I need to see if I need to clean up the mitre detent itself. A sligtly more annoying thing was that since the bottom of the mitre wasn't actually machined, when sitting on the tablesaw table it is at a slightly off angle to the 45 (to the table) it is supposed to be... and because of the fixed "pin" in the bottom you can't really lap it smooth like you could the front. Not a huge deal one way or another, but given how nice the grind is on the rest of the machine it seems odd they didn't bother with the mitre.

Kevin

 

[skelph]

2. When you reassembled did you press the bushings back in then thread the rod though? I assume so if you then used a clamp to press the handle on.

It came out as one unit. Because we couldn't separate the knob from the shaft we had to replace the whole thing because previous users had ruined the splines on the end so they didn't engage with the underside of the fence rail. One of the members machined a new shaft complete with splined end and threaded the end to receive a new star knob. We slid the bushings on to the shaft (the one nearest the splines is slightly tapered so it goes in easier), attached the knob to the shaft using Loctite and then pressed the unit into place using a G clamp. The base of the knob was strong enough to press the bushings fully into position. Much to our relief when the fence was put back on the fence rail the whole thing functioned as it should.

The winding knob appears to be permanently fixed to the shaft - we couldn't find a way to separate them. Your unit doesn't appear to be damaged so you won't have to worry about getting the two bushings the right way round. The removal and refitting is a lot easier than I thought it would be.

In your case it looks like you will need to find a slightly different way of pressing the unit back into the fence - on our fence there was a flat metal part that supported the cogged end and we could use that to place the other end of the clamp on.

It's a pity that I never thought to take photos of the process at the time. I'll see if I can get some pictures when I'm back there on Tuesday.

Hope this helps and it all works out.

skelph

 

[KT_NorCal]

In your case it looks like you will need to find a slightly different way of pressing the unit back into the fence - on our fence there was a flat metal part that supported the cogged end and we could use that to place the other end of the clamp on.

It's a pity that I never thought to take photos of the process at the time. I'll see if I can get some pictures when I'm back there on Tuesday.

Hope this helps and it all works out.

skelph

Hmmm, this is helpful to know. I may wait to try it until I'm ready to paint the thing given what you say. I did take a closer look at it and it does look like the inner splined end will clear the hole in the casting, but not the bushings, so hopefully it will dislodge them and drag them out without making a scene. I'll probalby soak it in some penatrating fluid before I try it. As long as the bushings don't have to be spaced in the casting I think pressing them back in should be ok (again, in theory).

Definitely would be interested in seeing any pictures as I don't have the support part that you are talking about... wonder if it is just missing, or did you have the later variation of this fence?

Thanks!
Kevin

 

[skelph]

Kevin, you have PM re pictures.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Hi everyone,
Been a while... had a monsoon winter here in California and now have finally gotten back to working on the AGS10. First thing is I need to get it up and running for a few projects before I go through the process of completely tearing it down and restoring it. I'm stuck with 120V power in my garage for the next few months until I can get a new 240v panel installed. The problem this creates is that I can't run the AGS's 3hp motor on the 120v... 1hp or maybe 1.5hp is max on that, but I do have an old 1 hp Delta Repulsion/Induction motor that looks like it will (barely) fit, so I'm in the process of swapping it. I don't want to mess with the arbor pulley at this time and the new motor is an imperial frame not metric, so the shaft is 3/4" instead of just under 1" on the 3 hp Brooks. Net, net I need a new pulley for the motor and will probably look at getting a taper lock, single V belt pulley for this temporary set up.

This brings me to some questions:
1. Does anyone have a quick answer as to what class?/type? (not sure how to phrase it) of V belt that came on these AGS? I'll attach pictures since it looks like the original belts were still on mine. I assume these are metric, I took some calipers to them and they currently measure 8.08mm wide by 6.09mm deep. That doesn't correspond to any known V belt types I've been able to find so I assumed, given these are likely original, that they are just worn down. The closest match I was able to see were the XPZ/SPZ types which measure 9.7mm across the top and are 8mm deep/thick. Also, looking at the pulleys that are on the saw I suspect the sides/taper of the belt is different than what is usually seen here in the States. What does everyone else here run on theirs and am I missing something?

2. Given the above, what type/class/name (again, not sure how to phrase it) of pulley would be a match for this original belt? I will need to find a taper lock hub that will fit on a 3/4" motor shaft and then a pulley/sheave that will match what I'm guessing is this metric based belt type...

I also have a question about the actual pulley sizes, but I'll add that in a follow up post, so I don't conflate anything. Will add a few pictures of the progress I made so far cleaning it up in a follow up post too.
Thanks for the help!
K

 

[Trevanion]

That's a Z section belt, I think the M20.5 is some weird mumbo jumbo that just leads back to a Z section belt which is 10mm x 6mm. So I assume you need an Z20.5 belt but best to double-check the length measurements so that you don't order the wrong belt. If you've got plenty of travel in the motor bracket you could put on a different size belt as I imagine a 20.5 might be hard to find in the US but you might be able to find a Z20 which is a little shorter. The 20.5 refers to how many inches the belt is in length, so it should be 20 1/2".

 

[KT_NorCal]

If you've got plenty of travel in the motor bracket you could put on a different size belt as I imagine a 20.5 might be hard to find in the US but you might be able to find a Z20 which is a little shorter. The 20.5 refers to how many inches the belt is in length, so it should be 20 1/2".

Hi there,
I realized today that the Delta donor motor since it was bigger would change the distance between the two pulley centers by a bit. I quickly measured it and it is an extra inch (measured at the bottom of the motor shaft) away from the arbor. Also given the different frame and resulting mounting point differences it looks like I'll need to add a 3/4" thick piece of ply to act as an offset motor mounting plate. Unfortunately the new motor's mounting holes are is an awkward place and if I drilled the motor mounting plate on the saw for it it would create a bit of a mess of the holes that are used for the Brooks motor, which I don't want to do... Anyway, As a result it looks like there will be an additional 1.75 inch additional that I will need to account for. Since there is only 3/4" of adjustment in the plate I'll need to get a "longer" belt anyway from the looks of things. now that I know they are Z section I can at least try and find the right belt and a temporary taper/sheave for the motor shaft.

I did cut the belt that was really thrashed, so I could properly measure it and it came to 21 and 11/16 inches long, so it might have stretched out over the years.

Thanks for the help!
Kevin

 

[KT_NorCal]

I did some more digging and it seems that this belt is a "M" type like it is marked on it... it is apparently a type that is not used very often any more. Haven't been able to find an pulleys/sheaves for it here in the US (doesn't help that it is metric), but it seems that the 3V type is pretty darn close and should be serviceable for a temporary solution. I'll probably need to run a longer belt so may just get a 3V instead of another M type...

 

[ManowarDave]

Z is the new M.

M was 10mm wide at the top and 5.5mm high.
Z is 10mm wide and 6 high.

The angle is 40 degrees for both.

You'll also get away with SPZ, 10 wide at the top, 8 high and 40 degrees if the groove in the pulley is deep enough.

Dave

 

[KT_NorCal]

Hmmm, All the info I've been able to find says M is 8mm wide and just under 6mm deep... which would jive with the actual measurements off these Wadkin branded v belts on this machine. As long as it is 40 degrees on the side though I should be ok using 3V pulley/sheaves though. They are a type that is somewhat common over here and I've found a couple sources for M section V belts here. Based on the measurements it is ok running M section belts in 3V pulleys but not 3v section belts in M section pulleys...

It should be enough for the short term.

 

[Farmer Giles]

These are the belts I have used on my AGS10, they are almost identical to Z section at 10mm x 8mm, however aimed at the car fan belt market.

The Z section cogged equivalent are prefixed XPZ, these are 9.7mm x 8mm.

AVX10X600 is a 10mm section belt 600mm long. I've swapped out the original 3 phase for a single phase motor so the length may not be standard.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Fitzroy]

These are the belts I have used on my AGS10, they are almost identical to Z section at 10mm x 8mm, however aimed at the car fan belt market.

The Z section cogged equivalent are prefixed XPZ, these are 9.7mm x 8mm.

AVX10X600 is a 10mm section belt 600mm long. I've swapped out the original 3 phase for a single phase motor so the length may not be standard.



Cheers
Andy

Andy.

Do you find the toothed belts any smoother?

Fitz