Baby Wadkin Bursgreen in California: Advice on an AGS10

[KT_NorCal]

Hi Kevin,
Just noticed you've been updating here. My AGS10 (1977). has the bronze bush in the rise & fall casting but the bore through the main casting is 20mm, no steel bush.

Hi Miles!
Hope all is well with you. Yes, I'll do some summary progress updates on the other sites as I get to certain points, but I figured there were way more people here that had direct experience with these WB saws and spindle moulders... and I'll definitely need some advice along the way. The WBs are pretty rare birds over here.

I'll get a better picture of mine, but it is definitely bushed on the main trunnion with some sort of a metal bushing. I am going to replace the bronze bushing on the other side as well as I don't like it being lose like that and I think there is too much slop between the bushing and the pin.

Have you had juddering/jumping problems because the rise and fall casting assembly doesn't fall under its own weight? I've had this from new with mine. I always attributed it to their hack design replacement of the gib strip system. Recently, I replaced the bronze bush and doing that showed up significant angular discrepancy between the slide surfaces of the two castings. At first, I thought that it was from post machining distortion of the castings but, having checked that, I now think it is a discrepancy between the pivot borings of the two castings. That's where I am, at the moment.

++++++1 Yes! Very same issue and it annoyed the hell out of me. After spraying copious quantiles of brake cleaner --to get the redwood dust and pitch out of the racks-- and then some PTFE in there, raising the blade was very smooth, but it would judder its way all the way down... I thought it was probably that "value engineering" gib plate as well. Although now that you mention it, I don't think slop in the pin helps the situation either.

Do you know if the old gib plate is retrofittable to these newer saws by any chance? I can't really find a good image of how the older system mounts to the trunnion so I'm not really sure if it is feasible. Barring that I'll have to think up some design.

The problem with the rise & fall assembly not falling under its own weight is definitely misalignment between the two castings. The rise and fall works fine on my 1960 BGS but the saw spindle isn't perpendicular to the sliding table movement axis. This is more likely to be distortion of the rise & fall casting in the other plane, I think. There is a gap between the castings at the pivot with the slide surfaces mated. Not that impressed with the workmanship/QC at Durham. I had to replace my AGS spindle bearings after 6 months because they had been so badly fitted.......

Another issue might be the variable levels of friction between the two trunnions at different points in their arc.... I'm going to coat the machined surfaces with a mil-spec dry moly lube when I'm done cleaning them up. I think that with a new gib design and making sure there is no slop in the pin should go a long way to making the design work as intended. I did put the smaller trunnion on a surface plate and it seemed to be close to dead flat so at least it isn't twisted on this saw. Haven't checked the main trunnion yet.

KT

 

[KT_NorCal]

The spindle is designed to move in the housing to allow it to be aligned with the riving knife. With the side bolt removed and using something soft between the hammer and the end of the spindle you can tap it out.
The Wadkin instructions ask you to tap it either in or out to align the blade to the riving knife and then tighten up the bolt. I go through how to assemble it in my thread.

Hi Deema,
Are you saying it is designed to be nudged *axially* or *laterally*? I assume you mean the former. In that case it sounds like it isn't in its housing very tight which should not create any undue stress getting it out. I have some soft rubber jaws on my Jawhorse (don't laugh, that thing has been silly handy I have to admit!) that should allow me to lightly grip the housing itself and then tap the arbor out using gravity as an aid. I'll have to re-read that bit in your thread.

Not sure why they wouldn't just want you to use spacers to align the riving knife to the blade instead of vice-versa. I'm going to be fabricating one of the "parallelogram" style riving knife assemblies for mine as it came with the stupid US spec splitter and I haven't been able to find a spare one for sale. I have a separate thread for that I'll document my progress on that bit.

I did find it interesting that the pulley sheave side of the arbor was stepped down. I'm going to switch mine to a poly-v belt and had thought I would need to fabricate a spacer, but it looks like that won't even be necessary. The pulley that was on there was on pretty tight, but came off without too much fuss.

thanks again for all the advice!
KT

 

[KT_NorCal]

Have you thought about a digital phase converter? It’s like a VFD but replaces a static or rotary phase converter. KW/ KW output it will be I believe not much more than buying a motor to make your static into a rotary and far quieter. It can also brake machines if running just one

Yes, but they are a bit spendy over here (for a good one at least). Not much of a variable between that and a nice VFD although that tends to not hold true when the HP of the motor starts to get above 4 or so HP.

Luckily good, second hand three phase motors can be found cheap here if you keep an eye out. Also, I've had a very kind offer from a fellow traveler on the old machine restoring road for an extremely high quality 10Hp 3phase motor for the sum total of $0 so my total out of pocket will be very reasonable for a nice rotary phase converter (have to buy some upgraded start caps and then some run caps to balance the legs..... those and some nice terminals should be the majority of the spend). The only challenge is that the 10hp motor might be too much for just a 3hp load, so I'll have to fuss with balancing the legs a bit more than I would want to... that and the motor is *extremely* portly... next to a modern motor it is laughably huge.... but, like I said, if you can ignore its weight issue its a beautifully built motor!

Also, this will let me run both my BER2 (4 hp) and this AGS, so at least in the short term it gets everything up and running with the minimum of cost.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Did get some progress done on some little things this week. The motor cover was pretty beat up and one of the seams had all its spot welds come undone sometime in the past, so I bashed all the edges straight and then spot welded it back together.

BTW, whatever this green paint is it is awful stuff. The only way to get it off cleanly is to blast it off. Chemically stripping it does work but leaves some very strange black coating or grime on the metal. If you try to burnish it off with one of those 3M paint remover wheels it basically melts and then clogs the wheel up like a latex paint would.

Anyway, I'm going to do the full monty on all of it with a proper industrial primer and top coat. Annoying as hell to do, but I do like me a pretty saw....

 

[KT_NorCal]

I've attached a spreadsheet I started, to track some of the changes to the AGS & BGS. If anyone has anything to add to it, I'll keep updating. Great to see your progress on the BGS10

Hi Miles,
Not sure if you want to add this or not, but the manual for this US saw I'm pretty sure says (can't find it at the moment) that both the threads on the back of the arbor and the cap head screw through the side of the arbor housing were BSW and/or BSF. I just checked them out of curiosity and they were both metric. The end threads are M16-2.0 and the one through the side is M10-1.5.

I thought I had read in another thread that these were the last legacy BSW thread items on the later AGS saws, but it does look like they eventually changed them all over.

KT

 

[KT_NorCal]

The only difference with yours is that the spindle is contained in a separate casting. What ever you do, DO NOT apply any pressure to the rotating cast iron collar on the spindle casting. This forms part of the rise and fall system and any pressure will distort it and cause it to bind or worse still crack. If you distort it you need to get it rebored.

Got the arbor out without too much trouble. It didn't want to tap out easily, so I put it in the arbor press and pressed it out... much less violent. It was a bit hung up internally... There were some burrs on the hole in the spacer and there were little gobs of hardened green paint in there. They pretty clearly attacked these things with a spray gun after they were assembled. There was some rust on the inside of the bore and outside of the spacer, but don't think that was hanging anything up.

Also, I had taped over the inside mating face on the flange before I glass bead blasted the outside of the arbor housing and when I took it off I realized there were blobs of hardened green paint on that face as well which definitely couldn't have been helpful keeping the blade aligned. Cleaned it all off with a soft wire brush on my hand drill and some acetone and then ospho'd the inside of the bore, so all ready for some new paint when the rain stops coming down in sheets. Also cleaned up some jaggy casting artifacts for no other reason that being OCD about it.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Does anyone happen to know what the correct size for the retaining clip that goes in this groove is? I'm hoping it isn't a custom sized one, but am not holding my breath...

 

[KT_NorCal]

Realized tonight that the end of the arbor housing isn't even close to machined even. Looks like it was just filed at the factory. How do you set the end berings as there is no stop. The only limiting factor is that the bolt though the side has a limit defined by the hole in the spacer, but I have to assume there was some initial factory setting for the spindle assembly when it was pressed into the housing....

 

[deema]

Nope, it’s designed to ‘float’ and you set the spindle to the splitter / riving knife. It’s actually a good design.

 

[Gremmy]

If you have a look on our thread about restoring a Wadkin BGS10 we go through how to disassemble/ assemble the spindle.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...e-full-restoration.132165/page-6#post-1532701
The only difference with yours is that the spindle is contained in a separate casting. What ever you do, DO NOT apply any pressure to the rotating cast iron collar on the spindle casting. This forms part of the rise and fall system and any pressure will distort it and cause it to bind or worse still crack. If you distort it you need to get it rebored.

The internal flange on the spindle is not pressed on, it’s machined from solid item. We always using a lathe to touch up the flange and make it true to the shaft again.

Hey Deema - just an FYI - the flange being machined from a solid piece was not my experience when taking apart my spindle housing.
I managed to actually remove the the flange by using a bearing puller. This wasn’t my intention, I was tired andwasn’t thinking and had set up my operation in reverse. I don’t unfortunately have any pics of the evidence, but warmed the flange and put the shaft in the freezer to reassemble.

 

[deema]

That’s really useful to know, I have a couple of saws waiting patiently for TLC, I’m going to check each if those spindles very carefully To see if they are two pieces. Has you saw a fixed riving knife or dies it move up and down with the blade, just to get a perspective on what it’s vintage is. Thanks for posting

 

[Gremmy]

That’s really useful to know, I have a couple of saws waiting patiently for TLC, I’m going to check each if those spindles very carefully To see if they are two pieces. Has you saw a fixed riving knife or dies it move up and down with the blade, just to get a perspective on what it’s vintage is. Thanks for posting

it was a fixed splitter but I subsequently bought a newer trunnion with Riving knife.

That’s really useful to know, I have a couple of saws waiting patiently for TLC, I’m going to check each if those spindles very carefully To see if they are two pieces. Has you saw a fixed riving knife or dies it move up and down with the blade, just to get a perspective on what it’s vintage is. Thanks for posting

Hey no problems, all about sharing snippets of info, your posts helped me massively -

was a fixed splitter but got a new trunnion and a Riving knife assembly as was peed off with having to adjust the splitter all the time.

 

[KT_NorCal]

it was a fixed splitter but I subsequently bought a newer trunnion with Riving knife.

What did your splitter look like? The one that came on my US spec saw attached to the rear of the main trunnion and as far as I could tell it was just a pain because the original owner of my saw clearly just took it off immediately and never used it because it was in pristine condition. It only tilted with the blade. It didn't actually move.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Got the first bit back together. I modified a set of Delta Unisaw handwheels to replace the jive 70s die cast ones that came on my saw (one was wallowed out as well). I also replaced the manky roll pin that the handles engaged with (and was bent up from the hand wheel) with a solid pin I hand knurled, so it is pretty easy to take out.

I also did finally get the cant worm shaft out of the tub. I had to buy a nice set of roll pin punches to get them out as they were a pain. The dude at the factory who put this saw together didn't cover himself in glory. The pin in the worm was broken because he tried to drive it in with the hole off-center several times. You can see where it dinged up the shaft. also, the one in the end was peened over which was very unhelpful.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Anyone have any idea what these washers are called. They are thicker than regular washers and they have a nice bevel on one side. I didn't realize it until I took the second handwheel off but the previous owner clearly lost one and just replaced it with an imperial one that didn't fit right...

 

[deema]

I haven’t found an off the shelf exact replacement, just made them. You look to have a lathe.

 

[KT_NorCal]

I haven’t found an off the shelf exact replacement, just made them. You look to have a lathe.

Actually, I took at night metal shop class at the local junior college just so I could fix this saw. Wish I had room for a lathe! I guess I'll have to make one next semester....

 

[Vann]

Anyone have any idea what these washers are called. They are thicker than regular washers and they have a nice bevel on one side. I didn't realize it until I took the second handwheel off but the previous owner clearly lost one and just replaced it with an imperial one that didn't fit right...

View attachment 125506

View attachment 125507

I don't know what they're called either, but they're very nice washers and found on Wadkins waaaay older than yours. Ì think Wadkin made their own nuts and washers, and bolts too no doubt.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[KT_NorCal]

it was a fixed splitter but I subsequently bought a newer trunnion with Riving knife.

Hey no problems, all about sharing snippets of info, your posts helped me massively -

was a fixed splitter but got a new trunnion and a Riving knife assembly as was peed off with having to adjust the splitter all the time.

HI Gremmy,
Do you have any close-up pictures of the riving knife "hub" that goes around the arbor housing? Especially how it is retained on there. My arbor housing has that groove (in one of the above pictures) that I assumed took some kind of a retaining clip, but on yours it looks like it is covered up...
Kevin

 

[KT_NorCal]

I don't know what they're called either, but they're very nice washers and found on Wadkins waaaay older than yours. Ì think Wadkin made their own nuts and washers, and bolts too no doubt.

Cheers, Vann.

Hi Vann,
You wouldn't happen to have any extra this size would you?

Sort of dread the idea of having to just make something like that on a lathe. Takes forever and is the definition of fiddley.

I did find some washers labelled "machined washers" but couldn't find any other pics or info on them other than that they are obviously machined, Hoping that might be a quick and dirty solution especially since I spot faced both handwheels to exactly fit the original one....

KT