Aligning an AGS10

[vanders]

Hello there,

I recently bought and "cleaned" my first table saw, which I documented over on the Canadian forum: My Wadkin Bursgreen 10" AGS - Canadian Woodworking and Home Improvement Forum
Once I started trying to align the blade to the mitre track, I ran into difficulties. This showed when making some test cuts.

It was recommended to me that I post on this forum, since there's expertise here about all things AGS
Indeed, I've already read through a few AGS10 threads, and deema's informative BGS10 thread.

Based on the first step in the BGS10 thread, I took the top off, and checked the sliding bracket. I had a gap there, due to the pivot pin being too far out.
I addressed that first (the pin had to be rotated just right), and then tried to get the retaining strip to put an even amount of pressure throughout the sliding bracket's travel. Mine's a bit different than what I've seen in the manuals I have, and I'm not sure how much the middle screw should push on the sliding bracket?

I took some pictures whilst measuring against the blade, as I lowered it. Hopefully attaching the measuring device to the main frame is a valid way of doing this?

Zeroed at the top (see sliding bracket position):

This shows the position of the bracket where the first deviation was measured:

This shows the sliding bracket close to the end of its range, and pretty much the last position that the middle screw on the retaining strip is in contact:

At the very bottom, where no cuts will be made (hopefully?), the deviation is larger:

Assuming that measuring like this is a valid way of gauging the alignment of the sliding bracket, my main question is whether or not the measured deviations are within an acceptable range?
From what I've gathered, .005" and below seems to be "OK" for blade, and fence, alignment. This shows +0.001"/-0.0005" for "normal usage range", and even the bottom position is only 0.003".

Maybe I can put the top back on, and move on to aligning the blade with the mitre track?

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[deema]

Good buy, they are wonderful saws and will just you your lifetime. First off, the grin retaining bracket is missing, this is a casting and has been replaced with a piece of steel tapped for the retaining bolts, the steel plate means that there isn’t room for the grib that the saw should slide against / applied an even pressure to keep the saw aligned. That said, the deviation your seeing which is 25 micron or 0.025mm for us metric people for the cutting span is very good. At the bottom the lack of the grib is creating the Larger deviation……the blade probably is the main cause of the deviation!
A solution if you don’t have any metal work capability to sort out the missing grib is to pack the retaining plate off with a piece of steel and fit a piece of steel as a grib strip. I made a grib for the BGS.

 

[vanders]

Thanks for the info, deema. I think I understand the solution you're proposing, and how a more "proper" setup would put more equal pressure on the sliding bracket. I may attempt it later, if this deviation causes the blade alignment to be too bad, given that you're indicating my current deviation is acceptable. I have no experience with metal work, and fear that anything I would create would be worse than what's there already

Anticipating moving on to aligning the blade to the mitre slot, I'll mention that my previous attempt seemed good with the blade fully raised and at 90 degrees, but horribly off at 45 degrees. I learned that this means the tilt axis is off, and as a rough validation of that, I shimmed the top with some washers I had laying about. As they were too thick, the alignment at 45 degrees overshot the mark the other way. I've ordered some brass shim stock, which is much much thinner, for the next attempt.

I can switch to using mm for measurements in future posts, if that's preferable! Not sure if the iGauging tool's display is more or less accurate in inches vs. mm.

 

[deema]

A couple of things to look out for when the blade is tilted. The grib (or in your case the locking bolts) becomes very important, it’s what is stopping the motor pulling the mechanism away from the main casting, the saw won’t be very happy and it can cause a bit of vibration, it certainly won’t cut accurately.

The moving casting pivot pin must be tight holding it against the trunion casting. I think you’ve adjusted it to be flush, but if not for the same reasons above, it needs to be properly adjusted and the two grub screws that hold it nipped up tight.

Lastly, the trunion caps that are at either end, these are cast plates held on by three bolts. Make sure they are snug against the trunion casting, if necessary slightly open up the holes to allow them to be snuggled down. Often you will find they have been fitted such that they only really go on easily on one side. I suspect they were drilled and fitted in the factory by hand. Again if they don’t they allow the trunion to move.

I’m not exactly sure what the problem is you were encountering, I cannot envisage it from your description. However, the items I have detailed will be I’m fairly certain your ares to concentrate on if anything isn’t working as it should be. There should be no reason to pack the table.

Don’t forget to set the bump stops for the rise and fall of the blade, the one in the picture isn’t touching the spindle casting with the blade fully lowered. The spindle may be catching on the casting? The spindle doesn’t look as though it’s aligned with the riving knife (splitter) when it’s inserted. Check that the locking bolt for the spindle location is nipped up.

 

[KT_NorCal]

First off, the grin retaining bracket is missing, this is a casting and has been replaced with a piece of steel tapped for the retaining bolts, the steel plate means that there isn’t room for the grib that the saw should slide against / applied an even pressure to keep the saw aligned.

This is probably not the case on this saw... that is an original Wadkin "value engineering" change on the later AGS saws. My saw has it as well. They probably used up their castings over a period of time and then just used that once they ran out.

It is still pretty poor though and I intend to replace it with a fabricated version of the ghib plate from the earlier versions of the saw. The piece of metal is not tapped and the original holes that the ghib plate mounted to are there in the trunnion. The only clever bit about it is the way they keep the stand off distance the same as the trunnion it captures is that they cast two pieces as part of that trunnion and then just break them off after they machine it. On the later saws you can see where they broke the casting and bits. I cleaned my casting up just for OCD reasons.

 

[deema]

@KT_NorCal that’s really interesting, I’ve so far never seen this on an AGS in the UK…..and I’ve seen a lot! I wonder if this is something they did on their export machines? Vanders, looking is from Canada and I believe your from Uncle Sam. They did here launch the Tradesman machines which were value engineered and looked different….I have avoided these and never worked on one.

 

[vanders]

A couple of things to look out for when the blade is tilted. The grib (or in your case the locking bolts) becomes very important, it’s what is stopping the motor pulling the mechanism away from the main casting, the saw won’t be very happy and it can cause a bit of vibration, it certainly won’t cut accurately.

This makes total sense. I will definitely take this into consideration, but may still keep it as a background project for now, as I have no immediate need to make bevel cuts on the table saw.

I attempted to measure how much the motor pulls on the retaining strip. I had to manually hold it in place, as I didn't have an appropriate clamp, so the measurement may not be 100% accurate. But, here's where I positioned the device:

Here's the result at full cant, with the sliding bracket in fully raised (should be the least amount of load):

Here's with the sliding bracket lowered to where it still touches the grub screw in the retaining strip (most load before all bets are off):

Sorry about the inches again, I forgot to change it..
Clearly, the weight of the motor is too much for the retaining strip to hold. Exactly how much of an effect this will have on the blade alignment I'll simply have to measure when the top is back on.

Here's a closer look at the retaining strip, and the "broken off" supports that KT_NorCal mentioned:

You'll notice that the supports are wider in one end than the other. I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes if the wider part is against the trunnion bracket vs. the retaining strip? A wider base would in theory provide more stability for the supports, but then less stability for the retaining strip. That said, I think the weakest link here is how the retaining strip is attached (it obviously pivots). Not sure if it's worth the effort to flip the supports and measure again.

The moving casting pivot pin must be tight holding it against the trunion casting. I think you’ve adjusted it to be flush, but if not for the same reasons above, it needs to be properly adjusted and the two grub screws that hold it nipped up tight.

Yes, I believe it's nice and snug now. I used my digital caliper to see if the pin moved as when I cant the trunnion, and I had a 0.00mm reading throughout. I did this with the sliding bracket fully raised, and lowered.

Lastly, the trunion caps that are at either end, these are cast plates held on by three bolts. Make sure they are snug against the trunion casting, if necessary slightly open up the holes to allow them to be snuggled down. Often you will find they have been fitted such that they only really go on easily on one side. I suspect they were drilled and fitted in the factory by hand. Again if they don’t they allow the trunion to move.

Do you mean what's referred to in the manual as the "trunnion trapping plate" (1026/7)? If so, they are as snug as they can be, I think. The trunnion is able to move very minimally front-to-back, however, if that makes sense?

Don’t forget to set the bump stops for the rise and fall of the blade, the one in the picture isn’t touching the spindle casting with the blade fully lowered. The spindle may be catching on the casting? The spindle doesn’t look as though it’s aligned with the riving knife (splitter) when it’s inserted. Check that the locking bolt for the spindle location is nipped up.

I think I know what you mean, and I do think the bump stop directly under the spindle casing (the square head bolt) touches it, but perhaps not early enough? Should the other one (the grub screw) also touch it?

You're correct in that the spindle would likely not align to the riving knife, but I don't have one, so can't verify. I am, however, not able to fully get the saw blade below the top of the table, because the spindle would hit the trunnion bracket. The spindle was the only part of the saw I was unable to fully disassemble, so I don't think I've caused that

 

[deema]

@vanders, yep, I’m not calling the part correctly, I was referring to the Trunnion Capping Plates a bit of front to back movement is normal, but they also stop up and down as well, ie lifting when the blade is tilted to 45 degrees.

I hear what @KT_NorCal says about the grib retaining plate, and the fact yours and his doesn’t actually have a grib plate just what looks like a bronze or brass screw. It may be what they came with when they shipped them over the pond, but it just doesn’t feel right that they would do that when they had a nice cast iron bracket to do the job properly. I might have a bracket and grib strip in my spares that I sell.

The other grub screw limits the amount you can raise the blade, you set it with the top on so that the belts don’t brush the underside of the table casting.

The spindle, if you release the retaining screw by no more than one turn / as soon as it’s free……what ever you do don’t disengage it from the threads or there will be tears! And then just tap it in and out with a block of wood between your tapping weapon of choice and the spindle. Alternatively a Thor hammer. What ever you do, do not catch the threads and damage them that’s is a really bad day even if you have a lathe to fix them with!

I would take the spindle apart and replace the bearings, not sure how expensive metric bearings are in your neck of the wood, but here SKF or equivalent are about the price of a Starbucks coffee for the ones you need. You will need a few shim washers too, but they are also inexpensive. If your getting the pullers you will have what you need. The nut holding the pulley onto the spindle off can be what stimulates colourful dialogue to no one in particular.

 

[KT_NorCal]

I hear what @KT_NorCal says about the grib retaining plate, and the fact yours and his doesn’t actually have a grib plate just what looks like a bronze or brass screw. It may be what they came with when they shipped them over the pond, but it just doesn’t feel right that they would do that when they had a nice cast iron bracket to do the job properly. I might have a bracket and grib strip in my spares that I sell.

It's a date related thing, not geographic. Standard on later saws. Miles (a member of the forum) over in your neck of the woods has one with it as well. Or did at least. He may have uesd it as a parts saw for his BGS.

It was clearly a cost saving "value engineering" item -- in line with other things like the jive 70s die cast aluminum hand wheels that *always* wallow out-- as it is literally just a piece of bar stock with one threaded and two through holes. They didn't even bother machining it in mine and the ends look like they were just cut with a cold saw and left the way they were. Pretty crap any way you look at it.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Clearly, the weight of the motor is too much for the retaining strip to hold. Exactly how much of an effect this will have on the blade alignment I'll simply have to measure when the top is back on.

This is the same process I went though trying to diagnose the "AGS stutter"... i.e. the rise/fall will rise smoothly, but on the fall will hang up and do nothing and then suddenly drop a centimeter or so at a time. I corresponded with Miles on this forum about it and after investigation came up with a few things.

1. What you are finding out.. that the value engineering "upgrade" of removing the original ghib plate/casting and replacing it with a single point brass set screw basically just creates a fulcrum that as the trunnion is retracted levers more and more of the combined weight of the motor out beyond the fulcum point. Hence getting it dialed so it drops smoothly is a real PITA.

2. Check the fit of the bronze bushing in that second trunion. I was able to fish the one in my saw out with my finger. Which you should *not* be able to do if all is right in the world. In theory, it should be a press fit of a slighly oversized ID bushing with the need to ream it to the exact fit after it is pressed in. In reality though, bushings of the correct OD/ID size can be found that are a press fit and should be close to an exact ID fit after. Easiest wasy to test this is basically if you can put the pin in the trunion (with it removed from the second trunion) and then wiggle the point that sticks though with your fingers you have too much real play in it. Also you should check the reverse. The bushing in the main trunion is tin or some other such thing, but you shouldn't be able to wiggle the "t" end of the pin to any great degree with the end inserted into that side either. On mine that bushing in the main trunion is still perfectly sized. That said my saw was only used for a few years before it was put into storage in the 1980s, so it is pretty low mileage.

3. The third thing turns out to be just making sure you take up the slack in the raise/lower mechanism by tightening the front lock knob adequately enough so that there is no end play (small amount of drag is best) where the worm engages the gear. I didn't realize that when I first got the saw. This is a non issue as far as you wanting to make sure the saw is aligned properly... just something to be aware of as it stumped me until I was told to pay attention to it.

Here's a closer look at the retaining strip, and the "broken off" supports that KT_NorCal mentioned:

You'll notice that the supports are wider in one end than the other. I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes if the wider part is against the trunnion bracket vs. the retaining strip?

Zero difference. Same forces apply no matter which way it is turned.

The trunnion is able to move very minimally front-to-back, however, if that makes sense?

Yes, this is part "b" of why this set-up is rubbish. If the saw has been used a lot (over the years) or even an average amount and not kept lubricated that plate and/or trunnion edge will start to wear and the only way to take that slack up given the supports are the exact thickness of the rest of the what the casting was (when it was new) is with that single point brass set screw. That fore/aft movement, assuming that plate is snugged down tight with the two bolts, is just wear in the system.

I am, however, not able to fully get the saw blade below the top of the table, because the spindle would hit the trunnion bracket. The spindle was the only part of the saw I was unable to fully disassemble, so I don't think I've caused that

I have this exact same problem and I still have no idea why. I know they weren't shipped from the factory that way, so there has got to be some combination of all the various stop screws that is the key.

The one thing that I did find (and took the saw completely apart before I was able to test if I had it all-the-way fixed) and you may want to check is that when I took what is the main "down" stop bolt out completely and then lowered it again it STILL didn't go all the way down below the table. I was stood there going "what the h*ll????" until I realized that by settting the "up" stop bolt properly that the threaded part of THAT bolt was then interfering with the trunnion dropping fully because the bolt was basically just too long. If you look how Deema has the stop bolts set up on the BGS10 thread of his that is how you fix it I think. You just rotate one to the bottom (underside) and then make sure it isn't too long.

 

[deema]

The blade raising stop acts on the rack and not the spindle. It’s only the stop for lowering the blade that acts on the spindle.
It should drop a 10” blade so that it’s just under the table when it’s setup.

 

[vanders]

@vanders, yep, I’m not calling the part correctly, I was referring to the Trunnion Capping Plates a bit of front to back movement is normal, but they also stop up and down as well, ie lifting when the blade is tilted to 45 degrees.

They seem pretty snug, but I will verify this later. It's neat how every little part on these machines seem to serve multiple purposes!

I might have a bracket and grib strip in my spares that I sell.

I'm not in a rush, but let me know if you happen upon one

The other grub screw limits the amount you can raise the blade, you set it with the top on so that the belts don’t brush the underside of the table casting.

I've verified that the belts stay clear of the top!

The spindle, if you release the retaining screw by no more than one turn / as soon as it’s free……what ever you do don’t disengage it from the threads or there will be tears! And then just tap it in and out with a block of wood between your tapping weapon of choice and the spindle. Alternatively a Thor hammer. What ever you do, do not catch the threads and damage them that’s is a really bad day even if you have a lathe to fix them with!

I'm not sure which screw you're referring to. Looking at "Fig 12" of the spindle you posted in the BGS10 thread, is it A? This whole process sounds very onerous, haha.

I would take the spindle apart and replace the bearings, not sure how expensive metric bearings are in your neck of the wood, but here SKF or equivalent are about the price of a Starbucks coffee for the ones you need. You will need a few shim washers too, but they are also inexpensive. If your getting the pullers you will have what you need. The nut holding the pulley onto the spindle off can be what stimulates colourful dialogue to no one in particular.

I was reading about someone having cut quality issues with a General 350, and it turned out to be the bearing needed replacing. I will likely attempt this in the future, as there's now two reasons to take the spindle apart! That said, I have an immediate need to actually use the saw, so I will come back to this.

This looks like an appropriate bearing, to me: https://www.bearingscanada.com/6203...-Bearings-p/6203-2rs-17x40x12-sealed-ball.htm

This is the same process I went though trying to diagnose the "AGS stutter"... i.e. the rise/fall will rise smoothly, but on the fall will hang up and do nothing and then suddenly drop a centimeter or so at a time. I corresponded with Miles on this forum about it and after investigation came up with a few things.

I read about this issue earlier. I can tighten the two bolts that attach the plate to the supports such that it pretty much eliminates stutter. In fact, if I tighten them as much as I can, I can't even move the sliding bracket at all... So, I set the brass set screw to barely engage with the sliding bracket at all.

1. What you are finding out.. that the value engineering "upgrade" of removing the original ghib plate/casting and replacing it with a single point brass set screw basically just creates a fulcrum that as the trunnion is retracted levers more and more of the combined weight of the motor out beyond the fulcum point. Hence getting it dialed so it drops smoothly is a real PITA.

There's certainly a lot to learn about these saws! Hopefully adjusting these things won't have to be part of regular maintenance.

2. Check the fit of the bronze bushing in that second trunion. I was able to fish the one in my saw out with my finger. Which you should *not* be able to do if all is right in the world.

Luckily, it won't budge.

3. The third thing turns out to be just making sure you take up the slack in the raise/lower mechanism by tightening the front lock knob adequately enough so that there is no end play (small amount of drag is best) where the worm engages the gear. I didn't realize that when I first got the saw. This is a non issue as far as you wanting to make sure the saw is aligned properly... just something to be aware of as it stumped me until I was told to pay attention to it.

Very good to know, and I tried this during the measurements below, but it didn't seem to affect things. I will (and have) tighten it when making cuts again. Thanks for the advice!

So, I put the top back on, and realigned the blade with the miter slot again. Given what I now know about the "value engineering" issues with the retaining strip, etc., I wanted to check how "bad" the blade alignment was after getting that as good as I could.

Here's the blade at 90 and 45 degrees, fully raised (I'm holding the lock nut, because the motor pulls, making the spindle rotate).
I realized after I took these measurements, that in the 45 degree one, the tooth was below the table, so not a 100% fair comparison. It's also not a practical one, because I'll never cut anything below the table :

Here are 90 and 45 degree measurements with the blade raised about just above a 3/4" piece of plywood, which I felt was a practical way to check things. The effect of the motor pulling on the sliding bracket is obvious, but consistent, small, and angled away from the fence. At least for my immediate needs, rip cuts are most important. That said, 0.05mm (~0.002") feels like it's "good/safe enough"?

Does my thinking make sense here? As you can see from the pictures, the previous misalignment caused some burns on the workpieces, and left a lot of gunk on the saw blade, that needs to be cleaned now. That's what really prompted me to dive into this a bit more.

I will very likely get back to the identified spindle and retaining strip issues later. But, I do have to be able to use the saw in the next couple of weeks, and I still have to spend some time with the fence!

 

[deema]

The screw to slacked to adjust the spindle is here

Yes, the bearings are 6203.

Tightening the locking handles has absolutely no affect on the cut of the saw. The handles turn worms that engage in cogs. The saw blade back pressure through the mechanism can not turn the worm so no amount of pressure on the blade will affect the rise and fall / tilt. The handle locks are just to stop you inadvertently changing the setting by knocking them.

30 microns or a smidge over 1 thou is more than good enough, far better than many saws.

 

[vanders]

The screw to slacked to adjust the spindle is here

That's the one I thought you meant. I've definitely had it all the way out whilst everything was being cleaned, and I'm not sure how snug it is at the moment. I will make sure I tighten it!

30 microns or a smidge over 1 thou is more than good enough, far better than many saws.

Excellent! Then I will put the whole thing back together again, and move on to the fence. I can satisfy my OCD of getting this closer to 0 later.

 

[deema]

Now, that’s not good news at all! If you have had the bolt completely out, is it actually bolted back in? The reason I ask is that it threads into an inner collar that stops the spindle moving. The collar is completely loose, it can move for and aft as well as rotate, any of those things happen and you have to take the spindle assemble apart to get the bolt back in. If it is bolted back, someone was looking after you! Well done…..do not ever take it out again unless your planning on taking the spindle apart.

 

[vanders]

I guess I'm lucky , because that bolt is all the way in (as I think is visible in the photo reference above?), but I tightened it a bit more, just to be sure. I'll assume there's no way it would go all the way back in, if it didn't thread into the inner collar..

 

[deema]

Nope, I’d consider doing the lottery tonight with your luck. I can’t tell you the number of times putting spindles back together the inner collar has moved and I’ve had to start over and replace a brand new bearing because it has to be pulled off again to do it. If a bearing is pulled we never ever reuse, you may have damaged the race as the balls have point contact and the slightest indentation caused it to gaul up and fail over a short period of time.

 

[vanders]

I still need to mount the fence rails, so I can move on to aligning the fence, but I did a quick test cut with the miter fence set to 90 to see if I got a better result now, compared to before. I did not. The cut was out by about 1.5mm over ~10cm.

This led me to take a closer look at the miter fence. I'm not sure what options there are to "align"/correct this thing, but from what I can tell, the fence is neither flat, nor square, nor straight, in relation to the miter fence tongue. The tongue also had too much play, which I got rid of why putting some painter's tape on one side.

I haven't made another test cut, because I think the biggest issues are the fence itself being concave and wonky, and the locking pin, which pushes too much on the miter fence body, causing it to rotate out of alignment.

What are my options with this thing? I guess I can try to attach something to it, and align that, so I can use it? Or, it there no point, and I should just buy a new miter fence? I'll have to make a crosscut sled at some point, regardless, but would want to have a regular fence, still.

 

[deema]

I believe that the expectation of what a table saw can do today compared to what they were designed originally to do is now different. Table saws were originally designed to dimension stuff, get it roughly to size, after which planes or planer / thicknesser machines would take the parts to final dimension. Angled cuts would be trimmed using shooting boards to achieve the precise angles required. Having said that, a lot can be done to improve the accuracy of the saw.

Have a look at the BGS saw thread Sideways and I wrote. First, you need to check the slot in the table isn’t worn, usually if it is, it’s slightly wider on the infeed side compared to the very end at the opposite side of the table. If it is, it needs machining for you to achieve any degree of accuracy. The second is the tongue, as you have called it. Either a new one needs making that precisely fits the slot, or alternatively, a couple / three of holes drilled and tapped into the side and brass grub screws added that can be adjusted to take out the slop. All of the original Wadkin mitre fences are a ‘rattle’ fit in the slot.

The fence to tongue alignment for 90 degrees can be adjusted / calibrated.

 

[KT_NorCal]

This led me to take a closer look at the miter fence. I'm not sure what options there are to "align"/correct this thing, but from what I can tell, the fence is neither flat, nor square, nor straight, in relation to the miter fence tongue. The tongue also had too much play, which I got rid of why putting some painter's tape on one side.

I haven't made another test cut, because I think the biggest issues are the fence itself being concave and wonky, and the locking pin, which pushes too much on the miter fence body, causing it to rotate out of alignment.

What are my options with this thing? I guess I can try to attach something to it, and align that, so I can use it? Or, it there no point, and I should just buy a new miter fence? I'll have to make a crosscut sled at some point, regardless, but would want to have a regular fence, still.

I have the same miter. Measure the bar and I can measure mine and see if there is any difference. Also measure the miter slots at three different places (inch from front, dead middle, and inch from back) and I can re-measure mine to see if you have any wear in the slot. My saw was only used for a couple years and the paint in the miter slots was barely scuffed so they saw minimal to zero use. Mine isn't a tight fit to the slot, but it isn't terribly sloppy either.

The "head" of the miter fence was a bit of a mess on mine as well. The machining of the bottom was pretty rubbish to be honest, so I lapped it until it was contacting the table flat over most of its underside. Once I did that the face turned out to actually be square to the base which it wasn't before, so while tedious it was a worthwhile effort. I then lapped the front face to make sure that was flat as well. I also tested the 90 degree pre-set on the fence and it seems to be either dead on or nearly so as well. You should be able to at least align the front face of the miter to the miter slot with a machinist's square to take that issue out of your testing. Once you do that any ugliness should be somewhere else in the arbor/trunion mechanism.

PS: I couldn't fathom why on earth they would have painted the miter slots, so I just stripped the paint out of them a week ago... turns out there were some filled voids in the casting that they filled with some white stuff which I can't figure out what it is and then painted the slots themselves. I've seen other saws from this era the same way so I guess it was something they just did, but still seems odd to me...