.

[Jacob]

I has always struck me as very strange how we are happy to celebrate elitism in many areas, sport for example, and yet often have a go at those who succeed in business. And I have to agree, the hard left seem to love the class system. Anyone "working class" who, through business acumen and hard work, becomes wealthy seems to be viewed almost as a traitor to their class, and become one of the oppressors. Rather than become rich they should remain virtuously poor, or so it seems.

We don't have a go at people who succeed at business. It's not true. You've missed the point.
Many of the unwoke are also unsuccessful.
Elite sports people often express their gratitude for the opportunities given them, more often than not from state schools and facilities. Some of the unwoke mega rich tend to think their achievements are entirely their own.

 

[Fergie 307]

You may not believe that people do the best for their children but I do. If you want evidence of that well...

Your comment was to the effect that the rich deliberately limit the education of the poor to avoid competition with their own children. So I ask again, what evidence do you have to support that statement.

 

[Fergie 307]

If you want taxes, I suggest you come to Denmark and experience proper taxation and its benefits first hand. Calling taxation at 45% punitive is laughable.

One of the most laughable things about the Truss approach. With the state of the NHS, social care etc, the last thing we need is lower taxation. Sooner or later we will have to wake up to the fact that we will all have to contribute more if we want these things to be done properly. Dare I ask what the rates are in Denmark?

 

[Jacob]

Your comment was to the effect that the rich deliberately limit the education of the poor to avoid competition with their own children. So I ask again, what evidence do you have to support that statement.

The main evidence is the pressure from the right to reduce spending on state education at every level. Surely you must have noticed - it's in the news all the time, from student loan, academisation, privatisation, down to inadequate and shrinking pre school facilities
OTOH private education is fiercely protected.
It's glaringly obvious, you can't possibly be unwoke on this one!

 

[Adam W.]

One of the most laughable things about the Truss approach. With the state of the NHS, social care etc, the last thing we need is lower taxation. Sooner or later we will have to wake up to the fact that we will all have to contribute more if we want these things to be done properly. Dare I ask what the rates are in Denmark?

VAT 25%
Minimum rate of income tax 52%
Personal allowance before tax is about £7000
Duty on cars 100%

University education is free, hospitals are good and elderly care is excellent, so is childcare. It's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than the situation in Britain.

 

[Fergie 307]

Doesnt sound unreasonable to me. Particularly like the approach to cars, have always thought our appetite for buying new ones every other year or so insanely wasteful.

 

[Tris]

OTOH private education is fiercely protected.
It's glaringly obvious, you can't possibly be unwoke on this one!

I'd take issue with this statement, 'public' schools are available to anyone who is prepared to pay the fees, and many provide full bursaries to high achieving pupils, regardless of background, as it will boost their exam pass rates.
Locally our secondary schools have far better facilities than most of the private schools, what you are paying for us a class size of 15 pupils and not having the kids underfoot at home

 

[Jacob]

I'd take issue with this statement, 'public' schools are available to anyone who is prepared to pay the fees,

Most people simply can't afford the fees and public schools are closed institutions, for the better off only.

and many provide full bursaries to high achieving pupils, regardless of background, as it will boost their exam pass rates.
Locally our secondary schools have far better facilities than most of the private schools, what you are paying for us a class size of 15 pupils and not having the kids underfoot at home

In the bigger private ("public") schools you are also paying for amazing facilities with huge investment in science and the arts. This is why e.g. music and drama are dominated by the "posh" - they get the access to instruments and even their own theatres, far beyond what most state schools can provide. In fact many of these things, particularly the arts, are seen as wasted on state pupils, who should devote their energies to getting "proper" jobs, even though the arts is a major profit making and export industry.

 

[Jameshow]

Jacob I agree with you on much if what you say but your persistence with an unwoke diatribe is off-putting in the extreme.

I do believe in socialism for essential services NHS education police fire etc.

But free markets for the rest so we have a choice of products to purchase...

I think by and large the working class believed in Boris as being "one of us" the back of class baffoon who made you laugh. Made mistakes but didn't rock the boat.

Truss and kwazi though have stepped in the cockpit having read a dummies guide and are trying every leaver......

They have hermeraged the working class faster than Putin's young men.....

Who will pick up these votes? I hope starmer does with a centre left gov. Giving real hope to the working class that Corbyn ignored in the face of his liberal left backers.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob I agree with you on much if what you say but your persistence with an unwoke diatribe is off-putting in the extreme.

Sorry!
"Unwoke" is a handy term. It counters the other side who accuse people or groups of being "woke". I assume they take pleasure/pride in being unwoke themselves and would not be offended!

 

[Fergie 307]

I think Corbyns big problem was that in padering to the few hundred thousand who paid their three quid or whatever it was, they completely lost touch with the majority of their core voters. Has always seemed to me that the traditional labour voter was quite conservative and traditional in their views. When the party leadership has strayed too far to the left they have always bombed, Foot, Corbyn. Both much further to the left than their prdecessors, and both suffered monumental defeat at the ballot box. Starmer is much more credible, and given the chaos in the tory party, will almost certainly win the next election. Almost inconcievable that the tories could have come up with someone even worse than Boris, but they have certainly managed it. Only question in my mind is just how much damage will she wreak before we can get shot of her.

 

[julianf]

Well im not rich. In fact jacob, I'll send you my bank details and you can set a direct debit up so i can take a day off every now and then, or order chinese each week or get sky or a new iphone or take up vaping..... you wont miss it and you clearly like the idea of wealth redistribution thanks matey

I said before how evreyone on benefits has the latest iPhone and people got upset with me.

At least you agree.

 

[Spectric]

It is ok for sharpening topics to become a little warm because sharpening is factual and a required aspect of woodworking amongst others but lets not get warmed up about fantasy topics like this woke nonsense that has probably crawled out of the world of social media, it belongs in the land of unicorns and garden fairies.

 

[Jacob]

I think Corbyns big problem was that in padering to the few hundred thousand who paid their three quid or whatever it was, they completely lost touch with the majority of their core voters.

He got the biggest Labour turnout this century in 2017. 12,877,918 to be precise. Very close behind Treesa May. Much better than Miliband, Brown, Blair before him. Nearly 13 million not just a few thousand nutters.
2019 turnout was 10,269,051. Still a good figure and better than Miliband, Brown, Blair before him but played out badly in seats.
Difficult to pretend that Corbyn is marginal or irrelevant. The MSM certainly didn't think so!

 

[Jacob]

It is ok for sharpening topics to become a little warm because sharpening is factual and a required aspect of woodworking amongst others but lets not get warmed up about fantasy topics like this woke nonsense that has probably crawled out of the world of social media, it belongs in the land of unicorns and garden fairies.

It's an insult wielded against "us" - I don't see why we shouldn't return it - they effectively chose to identify themselves as "unwoke" - if the cap fits wear it!

 

[ey_tony]

If you want taxes, I suggest you come to Denmark and experience proper taxation and its benefits first hand. Calling taxation at 45% punitive is laughable.

I wouldn't disagree with your statement.
Unfortunately a large section of the Great British public want successive pendulum governments to provide high quality services, nothing wrong with that I'd add but many are just not prepared to dip their hands into their pockets and pay more for them and instead expect the more successful to contribute what should be their share. They also have an expectation of being provided with high quality services on the cheap as the saying goes.

I'm not a Tory and certainly not a Socialist and having worked for myself for over 50 years I'd probably consider myself if I had to categorise myself as a realistic Capitalist who actually understands many of the financial issues facing ordinary people and I actually care about the poor as I came from such a background myself so I know what it's like to struggle.

I've done OK in life but certainly not wealthy but I've always been in favour of paying sufficient taxes to fund the services we we expect our governments to provide. If we want a Socialist system of society providing high quality services then we should all pay our share of taxes and not shift the tax burden onto just one group.
Vilifying those who have been successful and fortunate to earn far more than the rest of the population is not their fault, but it seems that they are seen as the villains or pariahs and treated as scapegoats for all that is wrong with society which is unfortunately the mindset of many 21st Century left wing supporters still selling their tribal division narrative.

I was born and raised in a North East mining village so I saw the "them and us" narrative first hand and that was why I left as soon as I was able to!

 

[Jacob]

...If we want a Socialist system of society providing high quality services then we should all pay our share of taxes and not shift the tax burden onto just one group.

It has to be the better off - because they have the money. They do also get the fringe benefits of living in a more civilised society.
n.b. all modern economies are to a large degree "socialist" already, whether or not it is recognised as such. It's not some sort of awful regime waiting just around the corner, sharpening their pitchforks!.
Calling things "socialism" or "capitalism" or any other "..ism" doesn't necessarily match reality, they are often very vague terms. Just ask a Marxist what Marxism is about - everyone will have a different idea!
PS and everybody seems to think that Britain's most extreme socialist government so far - 1945, Attlee, Bevan and co, was a damn good thing.

 

[ey_tony]

It has to be the better off - because they have the money. They do also get the fringe benefits of living in a more civilised society.
n.b. all modern economies are to a large degree "socialist" already, whether or not it is recognised as such. It's not some sort of awful regime waiting just around the corner, sharpening their pitchforks!.
Calling things "socialism" or "capitalism" or any other "..ism" doesn't necessarily match reality, they are often very vague terms. Just ask a Marxist what Marxism is about - everyone will have a different idea!
PS and everybody seems to think that Britain's most extreme socialist government so far - 1945, Attlee, Bevan and co, was a damn good thing.

You mean the better off have more disposable income and therefore they should pay more for every service they receive and yet you complain about them for instance educating their kids private schools?
Seems you not only want to tell them how much extra they should pay for everything but also how they should spend their money too! That to me sounds very much like an awful system waiting around the corner if you ask me!
I suppose you won't want them to use private healthcare even though by doing so it relieves some of the burden on the underfunded and failing NHS? The same as you don't want the wealthy to benefit from sending their kids to private schools even though it reduces the burden on the state education system. T

Unfortunately the world isn't fair and some are dealt a better hand than others but effectively punishing those who are more successful than others through social vilification seems a rather shallow, narrow minded tribal approach to life.
Me, I just prefer to get on with life and pay my taxes. I live within my means, I don't envy anyone who has more than me and I don't begrudge how they may benefit from their superior wealth.
I have a silly mantra that I have no right to someone else's hard earned money! That's just how I think I'm afraid.

 

[clogs]

Marx"ISM and other commie reteric .....realy means, grind the poor into oblivion but just keep a few to wipe those at the top AxSE's...
everything run by commies is awful.....just name one country with that political system the realy works to the benifit of all....
NONE I'd say......
My father was an out n out Lab supporter and was most aggrieved when I voted blue.....not so much coz it was blue but it was better than those from the red side.....

Labour/Communism like unions are well past being helpful to anyone.....
Citizens from any communist country want to escape, Russia, China N Korea and others.....Why is that.........???????
All those that spout far left ideals need to go visit / stay in those "ideal" countries for a few months to get the feel of going hungry....

I lived in S Africa soon after Apartheid, the vast majority of the "working class" prefered it to what is ther now...tribalisem.....

now I'm going back to work so lastley all those migrants are 99% of the economic sort.....
to get to the UK, the land of free money and housing, had to travel thru politicaly safe stable countries.....
why do they come to the UK.....I wonder.....it's back to the left wing and hope it gives them more votes and those rich enough to know they wont have em as neighbours.........
"Vote for me I'll set you free"..bit like that looney christian moron Merkal.....they just wanted votes and cheap workers....
and we are THE ONES TO SUFFER.......we dont need the Coast Gaurd to help with the problem
Just GUN SHIPS.....get rid of a few and the rest will stay in France.....

 

[david.tamlaght]

You mean the better off have more disposable income and therefore they should pay more for every service they receive and yet you complain about them for instance educating their kids private schools?
Seems you not only want to tell them how much extra they should pay for everything but also how they should spend their money too! That to me sounds very much like an awful system waiting around the corner if you ask me!
I suppose you won't want them to use private healthcare even though by doing so it relieves some of the burden on the underfunded and failing NHS? The same as you don't want the wealthy to benefit from sending their kids to private schools even though it reduces the burden on the state education system. T

Unfortunately the world isn't fair and some are dealt a better hand than others but effectively punishing those who are more successful than others through social vilification seems a rather shallow, narrow minded tribal approach to life.
Me, I just prefer to get on with life and pay my taxes. I live within my means, I don't envy anyone who has more than me and I don't begrudge how they may benefit from their superior wealth.
I have a silly mantra that I have no right to someone else's hard earned money! That's just how I think I'm afraid.

I couldn't agree more.
The majority of people want the best of everything but don't want to pay for it,the NHS being the perfect example.
Those who do pay private for health or schooling often are on the receiving end of abuse ,despite actually lessening the load on the nation.
Weird thinking but we live in a weird world .
A lot of it is downright envy.
Joe Bloggs doesn't like John Smith having a better lifestyle than himself and so the abuse results.