How do you hold a saw?

[AndyT]

This is an odd one.

Now, it's often been said that 'Techniques of Furniture Making' by Ernest Joyce is a trustable, thorough text book full of good sense and practical experience. I've said so myself.

Flicking through it recently, I looked a bit closer at his description of how to cut tenons by hand, and the illustrations in particular.
Have a good look at how he is gripping the saw:

His thumb is on top of the handle, but directly behind and in line with it. Not wrapped around the side of it. There's a big gap between the back of the handle and the heel of his hand. And his forefinger is not pointing forwards, but is inside the opening.

I've never held a saw that way, so I went to the workshop and tried it. It was really awkward and uncomfortable!
Now if that was how the great man held his saw, that's fine for him - this forum often proves that there is generally more than one good way of doing anything wood-related - but I just want to know if anyone else uses that grip as a normal, default choice and finds any advantage in it. Or knows of anyone else who does so, or any other author who suggests it.

 

[bugbear]

This is an odd one.

Now, it's often been said that 'Techniques of Furniture Making' by Ernest Joyce is a trustable, thorough text book full of good sense and practical experience. I've said so myself.

Flicking through it recently, I looked a bit closer at his description of how to cut tenons by hand, and the illustrations in particular.
Have a good look at how he is gripping the saw:

His thumb is on top of the handle, but directly behind and in line with it. Not wrapped around the side of it. There's a big gap between the back of the handle and the heel of his hand. And his forefinger is not pointing forwards, but is inside the opening.

I've never held a saw that way, so I went to the workshop and tried it. It was really awkward and uncomfortable!
Now if that was how the great man held his saw, that's fine for him - this forum often proves that there is generally more than one good way of doing anything wood-related - but I just want to know if anyone else uses that grip as a normal, default choice and finds any advantage in it. Or knows of anyone else who does so, or any other author who suggests it.

I think Joyce is more of an authority on design and construction, not tool technique, especially hand tools.

If it's a matter of a vote, (from memory) all the other authorities (e.g. Hayward, Ellis, Jones...) have the usual 3 finger grip with index pointing.

BugBear

 

[tomatwark]

Hi Andy

If you have a look at page 98 Controlling a Saw you will see he suggests you hold a saw in the usual way.

Joyce is not a bad book but there is quite a lot of stuff which is not right in it.


Tom

 

[Sawyer]

It's not how I'd hold a saw: I use & recommend the orthodox grip with index pointing down the saw. We are all different though: I've known people who wrap the index finger round the handle, fist-like and still manage to saw straight. Presumably, the person holding the saw in Joyce's book was an experienced worker, who found the grip confortable and efficient (can't think why though!). If it works for the individual, leave 'em to it.

 

[woodbloke]

Joyce is not a bad book but there is quite a lot of stuff which is not right in it.


Tom

Such as? - Rob

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have always found Joyce's Techniques of Furniture Making is The reference book, if not The Bible, for furniture makers. It is now getting old as most wise people are.

 

[matthewwh]

He may be unusual but there is method in his madness.

If you concentrate your grip at the top with thumbs and forefingers you have a lot of control over the saw - a good thing when you are starting a cut.

Once the cut is underway, the saw should be allowed to steer itself, (which, if it has been set and started in the cut correctly will result in a dead plumb cut) so gripping with the little finger and ball of the palm prevents you from inadvertantly steering it offline.

 

[Alf]

Well now, this is going to bug me - I could swear I've read discussion on this somewhere else, but blessed if I can think where. And as BB hasn't immediately showered us with links on the matter, if I can't recall where, we may be all out of luck.

Something did occur to me though - is it possible that grip could have come about owing to injury/arthritis or something similar? I know that'd be absolutely agony for me to do it that way, so it seemed possible this method had come about because it was uncomfortable to the chap to hold it the "usual" way. Just a thought.

 

[AndyT]

I tried this grip again. This time I used my heaviest backsaw - a 14" brass backed Disston No 5, and I think it starts to make sense. Beginners are often told to 'let the saw do the work' and holding it this way makes it impossible to bear down much at all - it really has to be the weight of the saw which sets the downward pressure. As Matthew said, once the cut is started the saw does steer itself - the user can't push it out of line.

Another thing I've noticed in these pictures is that he has his left hand near the cut. I think this is almost an instinctive thing - our brains are good at locating our hands relative to each other.

The side effect of this grip is that different parts of the handle start to affect the comfort, and a handle which is decoratively crisp on its external parts - especially the rearmost top curl - suddenly becomes uncomfortable.

I'll now be picking up old saws this way looking for evidence of handles being optimised for this grip - but I don't think I'll be adopting it as the default.

 

[jimi43]

Oh Lordy Andy.....you've started something now!

Just when we all think all we have to do is concentrate on how to press "pay" in FleaBay...you come up with more intrigue! :mrgreen:

Now I'm gonna have to put down the mouse....exit Collectible>Tools & Hardware and go out into the workshop!

Then I will be spending the rest of the evening trolling through my library of ancient, musty tomes looking at the sawing pictures!!

You owe us big time Andy....worms....can....open....rearrange! 8)

Jim

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Hmmm. Don't like that.
Just been playing with an Oakvillian carcass, since that was to hand. One thing it does do is shift the hang towards the toe. And blister the palmar aspect of the IP joint on the thumb.
More suited to the hornless handle of a one man crosscut saw or pruning saw (perhaps indicative of his working origins?)
Also many table and keyhole saws have this handle style, where it is maybe useful given the different work orientation? Will try this weekend if I get the chance.

 

[DOOGYREV]

Hmmm... Interesting...
In most sports sports where you have to hold a racket, bat or club and be accurate you are meant to align the V of the thumb & forefinger with the object you are striking and extend your forefinger through to the desired target.

Regarding the original question, I don't know exactly how a saw, I do remember pointing my finger made my cuts more accurate when I first started to use a saw, but no body ever told me that I just found that worked for me. There were only three things I was taught in using a saw, start with backwards strokes, let the saw do the cutting not you, and use the full length of it thats what its there for.

I do believe that as long as your sawing correctly the grip is more of a human preference for comfort and every body will have developed their own, and the handles came about after the blades, designed to be held comfortably (by the maker) so the blade would cut at the correct angle. I think you develop a feel for how the saw is cutting through the practice and experience of using one, and you naturally find the optimum technique over time.

However having said that, I will be paying paticular attention to my grip tomorrow aswell as experimenting with others, and using my old saws with the fancy handles to see if particular styles warrant a particular grip.(Japaneze/Pullsaws?)

 

[Benchwayze]

I just do it the way I was taught and I do have arthritis in my hands. It doesn't help to alter my grip on the saw; although that isn't to say it wouldn't be better for others in my position.

I'm a traditionalist, just like Andy.

And also I agree with Rob...

Such as? :?

John 8)

 

[Richard T]

I saw with a pointing finger (like yer spose te) because I think most handles are made with that grip in mind. Works for me anyhow.

Jimi wrote " ancient, musty tomes."

...You called?

 

[AndyT]

I would be really interested if anyone can find another picture of this grip in a book. I had a quick look before posting the original question and I couldn't find any. Indeed, as Tom pointed out, the normal grip is described elsewhere in the same book.

I reckon I've read quite a lot of old woodworking books, and most of the content is repeated from one to another. So get searching!

I do think this grip is deliberate - there are actually three pictures of it - and I think I can see that it could be an advantage when cutting tenons. But I don't think that any saw makers designed their handles to suit it, which is odd.

 

[jimi43]

I've seached my entire woodworking library and every single picture of someone holding a handsaw is three fingers in...thumb out and index finger pointing in the direction of cut against the handle side...as per normal.

So...my conclusion is that he is either a model..or has something wrong with his hand...

Jim

 

[bugbear]

I do think this grip is deliberate - there are actually three pictures of it - and I think I can see that it could be an advantage when cutting tenons. But I don't think that any saw makers designed their handles to suit it, which is odd.

On some of the backsaw with pronounced upper horns (as sometime shown by our own Pedder) such a grip is not even feasible.

BugBear

 

[Sawyer]

Mind you, I've just been using my hand mitre saw, and this is the only grip possible, because there is nowhere for the normal extended index finger to go. It's a metal handle, with no horn, so the natural grip is with the thumb on top as an extra guide.

It's still uncomfortable though!

 

[AndyT]

Excuse me reviving this old thread, but I was just reading Chris Schwarz's blog when I saw this picture:

Full story here.

 

[barkwindjammer]

I think your post should have been right up there Andy-Chris Schwartz eh-so thats the kinda guy he is :roll:
your posting was submitted on 14th June this year-"whats really going on here" ?