Zero stretch rope

[sometimewoodworker]

If you've a copy of Ashley, you should agree it's a poor choice for a stressed knot.

I still do have my copy of Ashley and have actually read virtually all 592 pages, it seems you probably haven’t.

A bowline correctly tied, correctly worked up, using a suitable cord, rope or cable and used in the correct location it perfectly suitable to be used in a high strain application (I have no idea what you mean by a stressed knot).
It’s ideal due to the fact that it can almost always be untied.

Like any knot if you don’t work it up correctly, tie it in unsuitable material or use it in the wrong application/location it isn’t good. I can give a number of places where it is a disaster or will fail instantly

As you seem so confident in your statement if you provide a reference to which of the 27 indexed mentions of the Bowline (or which of the 3,854 knots) supports your (in my opinion) erroneous claim I will be interested to go to the indicated page/number and be educated.

Unfortunately there many people who lack the understanding of knots, rope and where they should and shouldn’t be used. this sometimes leads to Darwin awards candidates

The best knot is the one you are absolutely sure how to tie and does an adequate job, there are often knots that are better, hold better, are stronger, and reduce the SWL by less, but many knots are terrible if wrongly tied.

 

[dephill]

I still do have my copy of Ashley and have actually read virtually all 592 pages, it seems you probably haven’t.

A bowline correctly tied, correctly worked up, using a suitable cord, rope or cable and used in the correct location it perfectly suitable to be used in a high strain application (I have no idea what you mean by a stressed knot).
It’s ideal due to the fact that it can almost always be untied.

Like any knot if you don’t work it up correctly, tie it in unsuitable material or use it in the wrong application/location it isn’t good. I can give a number of places where it is a disaster or will fail instantly

As you seem so confident in your statement if you provide a reference to which of the 27 indexed mentions of the Bowline (or which of the 3,854 knots) supports your (in my opinion) erroneous claim I will be interested to go to the indicated page/number and be educated.

Unfortunately there many people who lack the understanding of knots, rope and where they should and shouldn’t be used. this sometimes leads to Darwin awards candidates

The best knot is the one you are absolutely sure how to tie and does an adequate job, there are often knots that are better, hold better, are stronger, and reduce the SWL by less, but many knots are terrible if wrongly tied.

I agree with paragraph 2 and the last one.
Not keen on the rest.

The shackles in my pic are 12t and 25t, a 3.25 or 4.75t shackle wouldn’t fit over that rope and I’m not sure why you would want them to.
The bend radius with OX40 on a 12t shackle is approximately 1:1 so doesn’t require a thimble. (In this case a soft eye allowed more space for the other connections)
I haven’t read much of ‘Ashley’ but thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Orraloon]

True to the zero stretch, but, I do need to minimise it. I have a heavy lath set up in my bow press. The press has 14” of travel, the nylon rope in there at the moment pulled the tip on the lath for the first 6 inches of travel, the next 6 inches of travel were all stretch on the rope
I have jute cord I could twist up but jute fibres are quite short. The hemp rope looks good, correct for period too (14th century) when I need to make a stringer

I used to make bows but I only ever needed to use a stringer. I did see some guys that restrung compound bows use a press that employed a hand cranked boat trailer winch. Anyhow if what you are using is stretching then double it up and if required double it again.
I would be interested to see what bow needs 14'' of travel to string it. You may be mixing up a bow press with a bow tiller.

Regards
John

 

[mwinfrance]

So "rope" is the new "sharpening" eh?

 

[stuckinthemud]

this project is an attempt to replicate a medieval crossbow from a moat in Sweden. Nomenclature is not my strong suit but technically speaking, although I would prefer to use a tillering stick, as it is so strong I have mounted the crossbow lath in a crossbow table/bench/press- a large screw pulls the tillering string down the bench away from the lath which is held at the centre by a peg at the end of that bench, causing the lath to bend. As I am using an adapted leg-vice I have 14” of travel

 

[Jameshow]

So "rope" is the new "sharpening" eh?

Or track saws!!

 

[Adam W.]

Or MFT/torsion boxes.

 

[mwinfrance]

this project is an attempt to replicate a medieval crossbow from a moat in Sweden. Nomenclature is not my strong suit but technically speaking, although I would prefer to use a tillering stick, as it is so strong I have mounted the crossbow lath in a crossbow table/bench/press- a large screw pulls the tillering string down the bench away from the lath which is held at the centre by a peg at the end of that bench, causing the lath to bend. As I am using an adapted leg-vice I have 14” of travel

Is it possible that the original would have used sinew.

 

[dephill]

So "rope" is the new "sharpening" eh?

Good point.
I’m sorry to stuckinthemud for taking part in the hijacking of his thread.

 

[stuckinthemud]

Dephill I’ve enjoyed the conversation

 

[mwinfrance]

One never knows when a thread is going to sideways ..( with apologies to "sideways" )

 

[stuckinthemud]

Mwinfrance, in this case sinew is unlikely as the tiller is not equipped with lugs for a spanning device, the lath is not scored to key a glued lay-up and the back is intact and pretty lumpy where a sinew back would need to be smoothed off. Also the draw length is about 10” so not really enough bend to get sinew working

 

[Orraloon]

When I was making bows I had the tillering stick mounted vertically on the shed wall and as bow staves are hard to bend in the early stage of tillering I had a block and tackle to on the lower end to pull the tillering string down. Made life a whole lot easier. I understand that your lath will be very heavy compared to longbows so mechanical advantage will be your friend.
It sounds an interesting project and I for one would like to follow the progress. As you can see some of us are getting a little bored talking about sharpening and tracksaws.
Regards
John

 

[stuckinthemud]

If you can tolerate the very rough and ready approach/equipment and high chance of failure, I’ll open a thread in “projects”

 

[mwinfrance]

 

[TRITON]

I feel the need to point out when you tie a sheet* to a headsail, the knot used is a bowline.

*Sheets are the name of the controlling lines.

So theres a lot of pressure goes onto them, and they get banged back and forth as you tack, so being the traditional knot for this task, it is by far the best.

Did you know, that when tying a sling for an injured arm, you use a reef knot because the knot lies flat. So it doesn't dig into your shoulder as it supports the weight of the arm.

 

[Orraloon]

If you can tolerate the very rough and ready approach/equipment and high chance of failure, I’ll open a thread in “projects”

I know all about the failure rate in bow building. Its a real buzz just to finish one that works. As to the sinew debate it would have been unusual in nothern europe as sinew goes a bit limp in damp conditions. The classic horn sinew bows like the Turkish and Mongol bows were all in dry climate locations.
Regards
John

 

[sometimewoodworker]

The shackles in my pic are 12t and 25t, a 3.25 or 4.75t shackle wouldn’t fit over that rope and I’m not sure why you would want them to.

I was just guessing at the size of the shackles in your picture not suggesting that they were the correct size for the job.

The bend radius with OX40 on a 12t shackle is approximately 1:1 so doesn’t require a thimble. (In this case a soft eye allowed more space for the other connections)

As I said the strength of the rope eye is probably/certainly planned to exceed the reduction in strength that the soft loop used directly on the shackle produces. However the bend radius of the rope used directly onto the shackle does reduce the SWL more than if a thimble were used. A 1:1 radius is really very tight and a 1:3 or 1:4 will lessen the SWL reduction by a significant amount. If you look at deadeyes on any historic ship you will see that AFIK there is never such a tight radius.

as I have said the rope size is almost certainly designed for the way of attachment but a thimble will increase the safety margin by quite a bit. Is a safety margin of 30x better than one of 10x? Of course safer is always better but is it better enough? I know my answer but am interested in other opinions

I haven’t read much of ‘Ashley’ but thanks for the recommendation.

The vast majority of his book is more of a reference dictionary than a book to read, though it has many fascinating sections like #2027 and #2028 the mud chain and temporary bicycle tyre. So it’s really a book for a knot nerd to own and for most others to dip into for a specific purpose.

I agree with paragraph 2 and the last one.
Not keen on the rest.

I am not sure why the rest of the post is less than accurate or that you disagree with it, given that it wasn’t a reply to your posts?

 

[Jameshow]

I feel the need to point out when you tie a sheet* to a headsail, the knot used is a bowline.

*Sheets are the name of the controlling lines.

So theres a lot of pressure goes onto them, and they get banged back and forth as you tack, so being the traditional knot for this task, it is by far the best.

Did you know, that when tying a sling for an injured arm, you use a reef knot because the knot lies flat. So it doesn't dig into your shoulder as it supports the weight of the arm.

Stop it you have me looking at sailing boats!!

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Did you know, that when tying a sling for an injured arm, you use a reef knot because the knot lies flat. So it doesn't dig into your shoulder as it supports the weight of the arm.

The reef knot probably works for that, not so much because it lies flat but because tied in cloth it is not likely to spill or capsize and is one knot that is easily remembered. But used in the wrong places it is a really terrible and dangerous knot.