Workshop electrics
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RogerS
Established Member
Paul
You might want to check what the annual on-cost is for continued certification. One electrician I know mentioned £480 pa but might be if you go through NICEIC or one of the other medieval guilds.
You might want to check what the annual on-cost is for continued certification. One electrician I know mentioned £480 pa but might be if you go through NICEIC or one of the other medieval guilds.
wobblycogs
Established Member
I did my electrical course with Able Skills http://www.ableskills.co.uk/. They were pretty good value for money - no frills but thorough and dedicated to getting you through the (easy) exam at the end. If you choose them though I suggest waiting till spring at least as the main practical area is unheated and when I was there it was bleeding freezing. I think I paid about £750 all in.
As for just paying the fee for council sign off being cheaper I agree it would be. I had no electrical experience though so I would have done the course anyway so that I was happy to wire the house up safely. My council charges about £250 to sign off work done by someone not holding a part-p certificate and £40 (for a minor building works notice) for a part-p sign off. I plan on wiring quite a few places so I'll make the money back.
AFAIK there are no on-going fees for someone in my position. Although I can self certifiy my work I don't think I could get insurance because I'm not a member of one a certification bodies and therefore I can't (really) work on other peoples wiring. Being a member of a certification body is >>£500 a year. If you are a member of a certification body you don't need to apply for a minor building works notice as the body takes care of all that.
As for just paying the fee for council sign off being cheaper I agree it would be. I had no electrical experience though so I would have done the course anyway so that I was happy to wire the house up safely. My council charges about £250 to sign off work done by someone not holding a part-p certificate and £40 (for a minor building works notice) for a part-p sign off. I plan on wiring quite a few places so I'll make the money back.
AFAIK there are no on-going fees for someone in my position. Although I can self certifiy my work I don't think I could get insurance because I'm not a member of one a certification bodies and therefore I can't (really) work on other peoples wiring. Being a member of a certification body is >>£500 a year. If you are a member of a certification body you don't need to apply for a minor building works notice as the body takes care of all that.
Interesting comment there wobblycogs about the course aiming to get you through the exam.
No disrespect intended but does passing the exam make a good sparks?
When I took my exams I passed by the simple expedient of concentrating any revision on--passing the exams!
An example was a maths exam I took. The first question was on logerithms, the answer had to be correct or no marks.
Ignore that one.
The last question was a graph with all the data supplied.
Do that one.
We had to 'attempt' 6 out of 9, pass mark? 40 per cent.
I got 96 per cent, not because I was brighter than the other students but by simply ignoring a lot of what they tried to drum into us and concentrating what would get me a pass!
Hence my question.
Roy.
No disrespect intended but does passing the exam make a good sparks?
When I took my exams I passed by the simple expedient of concentrating any revision on--passing the exams!
An example was a maths exam I took. The first question was on logerithms, the answer had to be correct or no marks.
Ignore that one.
The last question was a graph with all the data supplied.
Do that one.
We had to 'attempt' 6 out of 9, pass mark? 40 per cent.
I got 96 per cent, not because I was brighter than the other students but by simply ignoring a lot of what they tried to drum into us and concentrating what would get me a pass!
Hence my question.
Roy.
wobblycogs
Established Member
It may have just been the person that taught our class but he was commited to making sure that we understood what we were doing and passed for that reason rather than because we had rote learnt all the exam questions.
Passing the exam* does not in anyway ensure you are a good sparks. The class I was in had about 30 people in it and 29 passed the exam. Of those I would let about 20 wire a circuit for me. One of the guys that passed (with 100% no less) I wouldn't let switch off a circuit breaker**.
Personally, I came away confident that I could wire a house safely and 18 months on, touch wood, I've not had any problems. I put this down to going on the course but also because I'm willing to think a job though before starting and importantly when I don't know how to do something going away and researching the answer before starting.
* The exam is in two parts, the first is a practical where you have to wire a ring and then a lighting circuit and, assuming you pass that, there's a multi-choice paper.
** The day before his exam he wired live to netral and tripped the main breaker for the teaching bays! I was fairly disapointed they let this guy take the exam as he clearly didn't understand what he was doing and fluked it on the day. He did tell me afterwards that he wouldn't be doing any wiring as it scared him so there is some small mercy.
Passing the exam* does not in anyway ensure you are a good sparks. The class I was in had about 30 people in it and 29 passed the exam. Of those I would let about 20 wire a circuit for me. One of the guys that passed (with 100% no less) I wouldn't let switch off a circuit breaker**.
Personally, I came away confident that I could wire a house safely and 18 months on, touch wood, I've not had any problems. I put this down to going on the course but also because I'm willing to think a job though before starting and importantly when I don't know how to do something going away and researching the answer before starting.
* The exam is in two parts, the first is a practical where you have to wire a ring and then a lighting circuit and, assuming you pass that, there's a multi-choice paper.
** The day before his exam he wired live to netral and tripped the main breaker for the teaching bays! I was fairly disapointed they let this guy take the exam as he clearly didn't understand what he was doing and fluked it on the day. He did tell me afterwards that he wouldn't be doing any wiring as it scared him so there is some small mercy.
jlawrence
Established Member
It might be cheaper to pay building control if it's only a one off thing, but if you're re-wiring the whole house you're likely to be doing it in stages - and thus needing multiple sign offs. In this case it would be cheaper to get the course done and sign off yourself.
No, passing the course wouldn't make a good sparky. But then if you don't know what you're doing then you shouldn't be undertaking rewiring at all.
No, passing the course wouldn't make a good sparky. But then if you don't know what you're doing then you shouldn't be undertaking rewiring at all.
RogerS
Established Member
jlawrence":el2l388w said:
I'm not convinced that that is the case. You pay your one-off fee and then it is up to them to come out and inspect as and when.
I wonder though what certificate you get at the end if it is just something needing Part p signoff. 'Cos most Building Control places won't use an electrician and so no measuring is done etc.
When I rewired the black and white as part of the total refurbishment Building Control didn't give me any separate paperwork regarding the electrics but since all I cared about was the BC Completion Certificate I wasn't fussed.
EDIT: As far as i can see even though you might pass the course, you still have to register with one of the Competent Persons Schemes....and that costs money...on an ongoing basis.
wobblycogs
Established Member
RogerS":32c4lim7 said:
I'll double check but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case a year or so ago. I had to send my Part P certiifcate to the building control guy to verify it but after that they were perfectly happy for me to sign off my own work without being part of a scheme.
Spoke to my mate - owner of an electrical company. Part P doesn't mean you can sign work off.
All the paper work is insurance company driven e.g you can rewire your own house - allthough it's now illegal - but when it burns down the insurance company won't pay up.
If you have new or old wire in your house it needs to be checked every (not sure if it's 10 years) so often to be covered. There's not much you can officially do yourself apart from changing socket fronts and lights (not even these in bathrooms and kitchens).
I've found the best thing to do is find an electrician who will tell you were to run the wires etc. Most will want to connect up as it's their name on the ticket.
As regards the courses - yes you can learn what to do but it doesn't mean you can then go and do it. You should be NIC and there is another organisation used now but I can't remember the name to be able to sign off the work.
If you choose to get the council in then they will tend to really go to town as most councils use registered electricians to test and sign off, so it could work out more.
All the paper work is insurance company driven e.g you can rewire your own house - allthough it's now illegal - but when it burns down the insurance company won't pay up.
If you have new or old wire in your house it needs to be checked every (not sure if it's 10 years) so often to be covered. There's not much you can officially do yourself apart from changing socket fronts and lights (not even these in bathrooms and kitchens).
I've found the best thing to do is find an electrician who will tell you were to run the wires etc. Most will want to connect up as it's their name on the ticket.
As regards the courses - yes you can learn what to do but it doesn't mean you can then go and do it. You should be NIC and there is another organisation used now but I can't remember the name to be able to sign off the work.
If you choose to get the council in then they will tend to really go to town as most councils use registered electricians to test and sign off, so it could work out more.
wobblycogs
Established Member
Ok found what I was looking for http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/part-p/. Check out questions 8 and 10. I interpret that as meaning that long as you hold an EAS qualification (I do) you can sign-off your work simply by notifying building control before starting. My local council seem to agree with this interpretation as I checked with them before starting. This route to conformance seems to be rarely used as the guy at building control had to go and look it up.
One thing I remember I can't provide documentaiton for is a period inspection and test which is a bit bizarre considering it seems to be ok for me to run in a complete new circuit.
One thing I remember I can't provide documentaiton for is a period inspection and test which is a bit bizarre considering it seems to be ok for me to run in a complete new circuit.
RogerS
Established Member
would not":30hefo1s said:
Not round our way. They take a quick look and if seems OK and you seem to know what you're doing then you get your completion certificate signed off.
RogerS
Established Member
wobblycogs":25ycezm4 said:
But the ELECSA site states that a 'competent person' is actually an organisation. My interpretation (but willing to be proved wrong) is that if you want to go and do work other than in your own house (I think) and sign it off then you need to be a member of one of the guilds.
To be honest, the whole thing is a dogs dinner.
jimi43
Established Member
Move to Scotland! :wink:
(sorry...I just could not resist!
)
Jim
(sorry...I just could not resist!
)Jim
wobblycogs
Established Member
I agree it's a complete dogs dinner and I would argue unnesessary. The whole thing was set up save people from bad wiring but even the govenment admit that only 10 people a year were killed (I can't find a figure for post Part P). When you compare that with the 3201 deaths on the road in 2005 it seems strange anyone would even care. Anyway, that debate has been done to death and we have to live with the consequences of Part P now.
I think you are probably right about needing to be a member of a scheme to work on any site other than your own home. There is no way you would get liability insurance if you were a member.
I think you are probably right about needing to be a member of a scheme to work on any site other than your own home. There is no way you would get liability insurance if you were a member.
RogerS
Established Member
wobblycogs":3pty51r5 said:
Where did you get that figure of 10 from? There ws only the one death that I could find and that was down to the MP's daughter being electrocuted after the MPs partner/husband drilled through a wall to fix a shelf without bothering to check first if there were any cables in the wall. OK, the cable was installed diagonally but still the eejit should have checked.
RoSPA didn't have any statistics when i checked. Not even for shocks etc. Most accidents (and I suspect where the missing 9 are) came from people slicing through extension leads out in the garden. Nothing at all to do with electrical wiring installations. Sorry...promised no rants in 2010.
wobblycogs
Established Member
Sorry to make you break your no rant resolution so early on in the year. The figure of 10 comes from the ODPM itself. I can't actually find it on there at the moment (that site is such a mess) but here is a press release from the ODPM stating it was 10 deaths and 750 injuries http://www.magnus-services.co.uk/d.pdf. Plenty of councils http://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ObjView.asp?Object_ID=394 state the same figures too in their guidelines.
The example you give pretty much sums up why I don't think Part P will help. People will still just drill blindly into walls and hit power cables and anyone that was enough of a cowboy to be installing diagonal cables before the regulations isn't going to clean up their act. The only way to really improve things would be to have inspections - by competent people - throughout the job but that would seriously impact the time it took to get the job done.
The example you give pretty much sums up why I don't think Part P will help. People will still just drill blindly into walls and hit power cables and anyone that was enough of a cowboy to be installing diagonal cables before the regulations isn't going to clean up their act. The only way to really improve things would be to have inspections - by competent people - throughout the job but that would seriously impact the time it took to get the job done.
RogerS
Established Member
But they plucked that number out of the air as there has been no independent verification of their figures nor confirmation where they actually got them from. They wouldn't tell me when I challenged them so go figure. Of course, they will make up - sorry, drum up - oops, there i go again - hype the figures - nope, still not there - issue - ah, there we go - the figures to support their campaign.
Councils like the press will simply copy what they are given without question.
Councils like the press will simply copy what they are given without question.
Just because you have a qualification to do part P doesn't mean you can self certify your own work. Click on the link in the above posts and you'll see you need to be a member of one of the organisations to be able to self certify work.
I'm not an electrician looking for work,..just don't want anyone getting done because ignorance is not bliss..
QUOTE..
How many electrical self-certification schemes have been approved?
On the recommendation of BRAC (the Building Regulations Advisory Committee), the Government has approved schemes to be operated by:
BRE Certification Limited,
BSI - British Standards Institution,
ELECSA Limited,
NAPIT Certification Ltd, and
NICEIC Certification Services Limited.
The following defined competence self-certification schemes, aimed at those who carry out installation work only as an adjunct to or in connection with the primary activity of their business (e.g. gas installations, plumbing, kitchen or bathroom fitting, heat installation, security systems) have also been approved.
I'm not an electrician looking for work,..just don't want anyone getting done because ignorance is not bliss..
QUOTE..
How many electrical self-certification schemes have been approved?
On the recommendation of BRAC (the Building Regulations Advisory Committee), the Government has approved schemes to be operated by:
BRE Certification Limited,
BSI - British Standards Institution,
ELECSA Limited,
NAPIT Certification Ltd, and
NICEIC Certification Services Limited.
The following defined competence self-certification schemes, aimed at those who carry out installation work only as an adjunct to or in connection with the primary activity of their business (e.g. gas installations, plumbing, kitchen or bathroom fitting, heat installation, security systems) have also been approved.
RogerS":1qrfl6id said:
That completion cert is nothing to do with the electrics. If you get the proper electrical cert then they have to do electrical tests etc which isn't covered in a "quick look and if it seems OK" test.
