Workshop Electrical Feed Issues

[Spectric]

It sounds like you really need the assistance of people on here to get you out of a real problem. I'm sure most people on here have been REAL tight for money at some stage in life. It would get you something safer than what you have. It sounds like you will have no option and will do it yourself anyway.

Something safer does not mean safe, doing it yourself could make things worse and this problem cannot be resolved from a distance because it requires hands on test & inspection and with electricity just because it works does not mean that it will not electrocute or result in a fire. What it needs is an electrically qualified person that lives in the Sheffield area that is willing to give a fellow woodworker some help for some token gesture. If I lived nearby I would gladly assist but I don't so who else out there is qualified, lives not to far away and is going to volunteer to help a fellow woodworker in need?

 

[pe2dave]

Cynics view.
Fred comes along / phones up says I'm qualified. How to check if he is for this sort of work?
Anyone know? Is there a 'body' that ticks Joe Soap as qualified?

 

[Sandyn]

Something safer does not mean safe

Perfectly understood. Hopefully there may be some kind soul who can offer some help, after all if he got the correct instructions, then it should be a lot safer than what he has just now. Gives some time for a 'proper' fix.
Does anyone on here speed?? that is breaking the 'law' and considered dangerous. It's up to the OP to accept the risk of what he is doing. I think he will have enough knowledge to put the bits together, he just needs a bit of guidance for the best way to do it.

 

[Spectric]

Ok, lets throw a cat amongst the pigeons. Since part P we now have what is called a "Domestic installer" and amongst the electrical industry they are not classed as electricians because they do not go through formal training such as apprenticships and have minimal training but at the same time many electricians with 4 year apprenticeships are also domestic installers. In both cases completion of the electrical regulations is required, currently 18th.

Ideally they turn up in their works van and show registration with NCICS and you can check this online.

 

[HappyHacker]

Cynics view.
Fred comes along / phones up says I'm qualified. How to check if he is for this sort of work?
Anyone know? Is there a 'body' that ticks Joe Soap as qualified?

Unfortunately there is no simple way of determining a persons competance or desire to do a good job. Being registered with one of the electrical registration bodies is an indication that at least one person in the firm is competant but does not mean the person that is sent out is competent or that their work will be supervised or tested. Search for Emma Shaw inquest to see what can go wrong. Being registered for Part P may mean the individual has qualified as a domestic installer some of whom are very competent others are not. Not being registered for Part P does not mean that someone is not competent it may be that they do not do enough domestic work to make it worth their while paying the fees and jumping through the hoops. I am no longer Part P registered but still do commercial and agricultural work where I am considered competent due to qualification and experience.

 

[Spectric]

It's up to the OP to accept the risk of what he is doing. I think he will have enough knowledge to put the bits together, he just needs a bit of guidance for the best way to do it.

The part you are missing is that even when he puts all the bits together he will have no way of testing it to ensure it is safe and you cannot evaluate his installation remotely, and he may accept the risk but this could involve family and neighbours if there is a thermal event.

 

[NormanB]

Reading Part P in detail, the nub is that currently the workshop Consumer Unit is actually just a large circuit coming off the house's CU. Whilst that's been horribly compromised, in principle modifying it isn't notifiable.

However my preference is to effectively have two distinct CU's, one for the house and one for the workshop.

In transfering the workshop CU onto the feed coming out of the DNO's equipment, that existing circuit becomes a new installation which is in scope for Part P.

If I'm willing to tolerate continuing to use the old fuse on the House CU, then it's probably not notifiable, but I don't think it's worthwhile when I know that will need to come out in due course.



I'm not inclined to think that way, I'd much rather have the advice and minimise the risk of things going wrong in the first place.

It's now clear to me that getting a sparkie in to certify the work (or tell me it's not up to spec and needs to be rectified) is going to have to get built into the cost, in order to minimise my exposure in terms of insurance.



No you read that right, it takes BS1361 fuses, although some circuits have been upgraded to plug in MCB's, and there's a separate RCD between the DNO equipment and the CU, which seems like a cludge to technically meet the requirement that came in with BS7671:2001.

I know full well a significant re-wire is going to be required in the house, and plan to get an EICR in the near future to prioritise what gets done first.




60A is what the current installation was designed for (before it was mangled), it's probably a bit more than my projected requirements, but dropping it to 40A would run quite close to foreseeable peak loads during the winter, and I'd rather not have the breaker tripping unnecessarily.

A full EICR can be a days work depending on what is found and how far the sparkie has to go to resolve any arising issues. I say this so you have a better idea of the cost just for this certification alone,

I do think it is worth taking five minutes working out what the maximum load in the workshop is likely to be - in other words what machinery is likely to be running together. Example Scenario 1. Table saw, chip extractor and 1KW heater
Scenario 2. Welding set, extractor fan and 2 KW heater blah blah. In other words you may have lots of heavy consumers in the shop but would be unlikely to be using the table saw, planer thicknesser, welding machiner and heater simultaneously ( referred to as discretionary load) —— (unless you have employees or chums sharing the space. I believe you should be OK with a 32A MCCB/RCBO and if you have especially high motor starter currents you can go ‘slower acting’ with a Type C.

if you are aiming at saving cost then having the electrician once is the way to go, so doing the work to get the workshop resupplied safely (as discussed in my former post) and then getting the sparkie to certify as part of the EICR would be the way to go.

Identifying an electrician who was willing to work with you on this basis is absolutely key.

 

[Sandyn]

and he may accept the risk but this could involve family and neighbours if there is a thermal event.

I do understand all of that and realise you are saying it with best possible intentions and it is technically/legally the correct stance to take, but if he is given good guidance from someone like yourself, the chances of any thermal event will be very low.

 

[Spectric]

Hi

How does he provide the measurements required such as loop impedances if working out fault current long hand or prospective fault currents without the equipment. It is obvious there are major issues with this installation and without fully understanding the current condition and visual inspection of it then any advice or recomendations may be wrong.

The only solution at present is to disconnect your shed/workshop from the house wiring and do not try to reconnect. Objective is to get house lights working and remove obvious concerns that could pose a hazzard. If that wiring is 1.5mm then it is potentially a lighting circuit and should be fused at no more than 16 amps not a 60 amp fuse. Now on the basis that your workshop has been fed via some bodged 13amp RCD itself fed from 1.5mm wiring which is a no no, then as a temporary measure run an extension lead when you need power in the workshop and always fully extend it leaving none on the drum. Now my assumption is you will not be using anything requiring a 16 amp supply but will be restricted to basic lights and a single machine at a time. This may be a bit of a nuisance but the supply will be correctly fused at 13 amps and f the main consumer unit does not have RCD protection then use an RCD in the socket you plug this extension into. Then as soon as funds allow please get an electrician in if just to give you an idea of whats needed.

 

[Spectric]

Hi

forgot to say a quote would be free and whilst there you could soon gather what condition everything is in by his reaction.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Just hope he doesn't roll his eyes heavenward and exhale sharply.

 

[Jelly]

How does he provide the measurements required such as loop impedances if working out fault current long hand or prospective fault currents without the equipment.

I am in a position to access the requisite test equipment for that, as previously discussed.

The only solution at present is to disconnect your shed/workshop from the house wiring and do not try to reconnect.

Done. Never bothered to replace the fuse in the 13A plug on the garage flex.

Objective is to get house lights working and remove obvious concerns that could pose a hazzard. If that wiring is 1.5mm then it is potentially a lighting circuit and should be fused at no more than 16 amps not a 60 amp fuse.

60A fuse is pulled, I've rigged up two inspection lamps powered off of sockets elsewhere in the room, it's crude but at least I can see for now.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

That is somewhat incorrect. He may be a small business who is not registered for VAT purposes but he will be paying VAT on whatever components he buys in and will be passing that cost on to you. He will not be able to charge VAT on his labour and he will not be able to reclaim the VAT that he has paid for materials.

I completely understand the VAT laws, however you missed the added VAT on the markup he will be adding to all the materials he is supplying (he will be getting a trade discount and supplying at a regular retail price), so on an £900 bill for a job from him I am virtually certain to be making a substantial saving over the same job by a larger business.

 

[J-G]

... I am virtually certain to be making a substantial saving over the same job by a larger business.

That was not the point - and I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't be better off by using a 'small business'. You stated that it would be VAT Free, which it isn't.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

That was not the point - and I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't be better off by using a 'small business'. You stated that it would be VAT Free, which it isn't.

That is a rather interesting conundrum. It is also a rather difficult one to decide much less be sure of.

If a business is registered you will be charged VAT. Simple open and shut case.

If a business is not registered you will not be charged VAT. Again simple open and shut case.

However it is the unregistered business that will pay VAT on items they buy that they cannot reclaim or pass on, so they pay VAT. But can only charge a price that returns a profit and, of course, don’t/can’t add VAT.

So as the ultimate consumer my bill is VAT free from my electriction. What his costs are and where his materials come from are irrelevant to me. He may be buying from small businesses (probably not but certainly possible) and so on down the supply chain, so it’s conceivable that nobody in the chain is VAT registered Q.E.D. my payment is possibly totally free of any VAT component at any point.

So I can say that it’s totally VAT free, I didn’t but could if I were able to follow the supply chain.

Because someone down the chain paid something doesn’t philosophically mean that I paid it, don’t you agree? In fact I think HMRC may specifically, and rather insistently, say that I did not.

This is an interesting technical point to consider while locked down.

Now the whole discussion could have been avoided had I said that “I will not be paying VAT on my bill for the work from my electrician” but “VAT free” is shorter, though a little less accurate, isn’t it?

This is not intended to be a knock down drawn out fight but rather a point for reasonable intellectual debate.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Ok, lets throw a cat amongst the pigeons. Since part P we now have what is called a "Domestic installer"

Really? I thought that the "Domestic installer" is a change that is being introduced with the 19th Edition of the Wiring Regulations and that part P rather predates that?

 

[NetBlindPaul]

Really? I thought that the "Domestic installer" is a change that is being introduced with the 19th Edition of the Wiring Regulations and that part P rather predates that?

“Domestic Installers“ are a concept which was brought in by the voluntary regulatory bodies in the wake of “Part P”.

And, by the way, unless you have a time machine, or I’ve slept in my hospital bed for like 6 years, we are still on the 18th Edition of the Wiring Regulations.
Amendment 2 was the last version that we worked on, which has recently finished its public commentart period and will now go back to JPEL64 for review accompanied by the comments, which will also be reviewed to form the final version which will go to print and will lkely be published around June next year (I would need to check the exact target date) with an implementation date 6 months later.
Once the final draft of Amd2 is completed, JPEL64 will move on to the 3rd amendment, which will follow in a fews yeaes after Amd2 is published and go through the same process. Once that is finalised, it is likely that the next revision will be the 19th. I would guess around 2030.

 

[NetBlindPaul]

I am in a position to access the requisite test equipment for that, as previously discussed.
...

It’s all well and good getting hold of th test equipment, the important part is interpreting the results and assessing them for safety and compliance,

 

[NetBlindPaul]

A full EICR can be a days work depending on what is found and how far the sparkie has to go to resolve any arising issues. I say this so you have a better idea of the cost just for this certification alone,

I do think it is worth taking five minutes working out what the maximum load in the workshop is likely to be - in other words what machinery is likely to be running together. Example Scenario 1. Table saw, chip extractor and 1KW heater
Scenario 2. Welding set, extractor fan and 2 KW heater blah blah. In other words you may have lots of heavy consumers in the shop but would be unlikely to be using the table saw, planer thicknesser, welding machiner and heater simultaneously ( referred to as discretionary load) —— (unless you have employees or chums sharing the space. I believe you should be OK with a 32A MCCB/RCBO and if you have especially high motor starter currents you can go ‘slower acting’ with a Type C.
...

ii would guess from the OP’s description, that an EICR would easily be a days work on the property if not more.
As part of this the electrician is not bound to rectify any defects apart from making any C1 observations safe, however, this would be at additional cost to the homeowner, unless the electrician is willing to provide the labour and material sor this rectification free of charge.
Remedial works would be additional, and would require the necessary certification under BS 7671 if the person undertaking the remedial works is a scheme member as this is a requirement of their scheme membership.
Else the requirement would be under Part P as this requires compliance with BS 7671, which in turn requires certification.

We don’t call it discretionary load, when we calculate the potential for multiple loads and the expected actual maximum load, we do it by applying what we call diversity.

 

[NetBlindPaul]

Ok, lets throw a cat amongst the pigeons. Since part P we now have what is called a "Domestic installer" and amongst the electrical industry they are not classed as electricians because they do not go through formal training such as apprenticships and have minimal training but at the same time many electricians with 4 year apprenticeships are also domestic installers. In both cases completion of the electrical regulations is required, currently 18th.

Ideally they turn up in their works van and show registration with NCICS and you can check this online.

I think you mean NICEIC.
However there are other equivalent voluntary regulatory bodies for electrical installers and electricians.
I mysef have moved from the NICEIC to NAPIT due to a reduction in cost.
Plus the NICEIC operate a QS model where by they allow a single qualified person too control potentially unqualified operatives.
NAPIT run an individual competency scheme, whereby each operative in the company is assessed.