Work like a Roman?

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AndyT

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With all the recent interest in historically interesting plane designs, I thought it might be interesting to look at a sample of Roman woodwork and see if anyone fancies making a reproduction of it.

Before he published his influential "History of Woodworking Tools" WL Goodman wrote a little book called "Woodwork - from the Stone age to Do-it-yourself" published in 1962.

In it, he illustrated a cupboard door, made by Romans in Egypt at Fayoum, in the 3rd or 4th century AD, which is in the Bristol Museum. He lived in Bristol at the time, so would have been able to pop in and have a look, as I did last week.

Unfortunately, the display is in a sort of 'inside the tomb' gloom, so even after digital lightening, my photo looks like this:

20141031_142436_zpss2twcghr.jpg


Happily, the museum has its own image on-line which is clearer:

media.php


Being a joiner turned historian, Bill Goodman must have been intrigued by the construction of the door. He must have persuaded the curator to let him have a proper look at it, enough for him to have done a detailed measured drawing of it:

20141104_154215_zpsbdotsuhi.jpg


It shows some really elaborate work - the horizontal mouldings have been planted into rebates in the panel and secured with dowels. Clear evidence of the existence of effective moulding and plough planes.
It's also interesting for the way that the hinged stile runs through while the shutting stile doesn't, which I think might have helped in fitting the panels into the frame.

What tools were used? Apparently, there is one surviving Roman moulding plane, at the back of this picture, also found in Egypt:

20141104_162412_zpsjyxgqaok.jpg


- the sort of practical tool that a craftsman could have made for himself to suit the job in hand, and a pattern which (quite naturally) is still being made from time to time.

Here's the sort of iron that could have been used in it:

20141104_162440_zpsenekx1it.jpg


So, now that I've given you the background info, are there any skilled plane makers looking for a fresh challenge? A Roman door made with Roman tools?

Or even a similar door with more modern tools?
 
"Looks like a Krenov job to me with the hinge position and odd styles."

He's not THAT old, Bern!


The Romans really were advanced, weren't they? I'm just reading Hayward's 'Period Furniture Designs', and we didn't get back to rediscovering the groove and panel construction until the 16th century (though they may have got there rather sooner in Renaissance Italy, for example).

I wonder how much of the skilled practical work was done by Romans themselves, and how much by skilled slaves? (Mutterings of "nothing much changes" from some quarters!)
 
Brilliant! It seems so familiar, ogee panel moulds, haunched mortice and tenon. Interesting how the panel was built up. Thanks Andy!
 
Berncarpenter":s8ohakpz said:
Looks like a Krenov job to me with the hinge position and odd styles.

Cheers Bern

Hello,

Krenov would never use mitres!

Very interesting construction, though.

Mike.
 
Most interesting indeed! Wonderful bit of research and compilation of results...you're honing your skills Prof...you should be in TATHS! :wink:

Well...this certainly needs discussing...I feel a chat coming on about this at MACs at the end of the month...most fitting I think..over a coffee...biscuits and a Roman plane (eh Richard!?)

That moulding plane and iron are especially remarkable...I feel we may be moving into a "Roman Toolkit" period....wonderful stuff indeed! =D>

Jimi
 
I like the timelessness of woodwork: that door could just as easily have been made now.
Etiamsi instrumenta mutaverunt, ars aeterna est!
 
Those beads next to the ogee are also interesting. These are kind of hard to make with a round. Maybe they used scratch stocks too?
 
Corneel":2weva9qs said:
Those beads next to the ogee are also interesting. These are kind of hard to make with a round. Maybe they used scratch stocks too?
I was wondering about scratch stocks too.
 
I'd like to think that some day I'd have the required skill to have a go at replicating that door. I do find it fascinating to look at something so old, and yet so personal (both in its making and use). I'm also interested in our surprised reaction to how sophisticated past civilisations actually were - why do we think we do things better now? I remember seeing a documentary last year on the 'Antikithera mechanism' (not sure of the spelling), which is about 2,500 years old and pretty mind-blowing in it's complexity.
 
jimi43":2w5ur1nj said:
Most interesting indeed! Wonderful bit of research and compilation of results...you're honing your skills Prof...you should be in TATHS! :wink:

Well...this certainly needs discussing...I feel a chat coming on about this at MACs at the end of the month...most fitting I think..over a coffee...biscuits and a Roman plane (eh Richard!?)

That moulding plane and iron are especially remarkable...I feel we may be moving into a "Roman Toolkit" period....wonderful stuff indeed! =D>

Jimi

Yes Jimi, well worth discussing, I think :)
I like the look of the moulding plane but I've probably got too much on my plate to attempt to make one this month. I suppose it could be made of beech and the sole shaped using a scratch stock.
 
matt_southward":3psl9aqh said:
I'm also interested in our surprised reaction to how sophisticated past civilisations actually were - why do we think we do things better now? I remember seeing a documentary last year on the 'Antikithera mechanism' (not sure of the spelling), which is about 2,500 years old and pretty mind-blowing in it's complexity.

Quite so! People forget that the Romans had exquisite glass, central heating, &c. &c. and think that medieval people were one step up from the caveman. There are countless examples, but one of my favourite is the amazing skill of 15th. century armourers, especially in Milan and Innsbruck. Helmets hammered out of a single ingot, thicker at the front than behind (strength where most needed, saving weight where it wasn't): brilliantly articulated to allow full movement: case hardened so that a file barely marks the surface ...
They were pretty nifty at woodwork too!
 
Is it just me or does it look like something is missing?
Could this have been wider at some time which would allow for the top and bottom rails to continue?
Also why the mortise in the edge with peg holes?

Andy
 
toolsntat":31fab7us said:
Is it just me or does it look like something is missing?
Could this have been wider at some time which would allow for the top and bottom rails to continue?
Also why the mortise in the edge with peg holes?

Andy
Yes it looks like a sawn off half of a 6 panel door except the tenons are haunched on the lock edge which makes them asymmetric and could mean it is the finished edge.
On the other hand the drawing could be wrong - unless it was pulled apart (or x rayed?) you wouldn't know the form of the tenon - it might just be a stub as per a muntin, in which case it could be a sawn off door - which would also account for the odd position of the dowels on the muntin ends.
 
I suspect the drawing is no more than a guess of the internal joint detail. The dowels through the haunches of the tenons on the left hand style seem a bit unlikely - not a lot of strength in them.

I think the idea that it was once a door almost twice the width that has been cut down would explain a lot. The asymmetric joinery - perhaps the left hand stile tenons are not really haunched, but the remains of a twin ? And the odd insert piece in the left stile is to fill the now redundant mortices.
 
Well, adding to what is an interesting discussion, with some more speculation of my own...

I agree that the funny dowelled-in 'filler' bit in the middle is hard to explain but I don't think it was a six panel door. If the top and bottom horizontal rails had been longer, extending to the left, there would have been no need to haunch the mortices where the shutting stile joins them. Also, a cupboard door of double the width would have been inconveniently wide. I'm guessing too, but I think a pair of narrow doors would have been more practical back then just as it would be now. Maybe there was some sort of latch at the middle?

I do agree that the moulding round the inner panels could have been done with a scratch stock. It's hard to see in the photos, but Goodman has drawn it distinctly shallower than the other moulding.

The thing that surprises me most is the idea of letting in quite broad separate long grain pieces to take the mouldings. It's something I've not seen elsewhere. (The nearest I can think of in our traditions is the elaborate way of making a "bead and flush" door, which does have a long grain bead going across the top and bottom of a panel.)

I suppose it's not too much to speculate that the original makers of the piece knew that they had an all year round dry climate, and could get away with construction which looks wrong to anyone used to more seasonal variations. (But then, isn't coping with expansion and contraction some of the point of frame and panel construction? )

Also, I thought it was odd that at the back of the panels, there is a square edged rebate, butting up against the framework - there is room for the panel to shrink, but not for it to expand.

I'll bring the books along to Mac Timbers and look forward to more discussion of this and many other matters!
 
One of my hobbies is medieval re-enactment with a group of artisans. The group captain was a restoration carpenter for 32 years, He portrays a medieval village carpenter. We usually ask the public to name a modern woodworking tool and we can show them the medieval equivalent. We have not been beaten yet in 14 years of doing it. He could make that door easily and possibly in the middle of a field as well! BTW there is one tool that we cannot replicate in medieval times, can anyone guess what it is?
 
bourbon":19gzhen0 said:
One of my hobbies is medieval re-enactment with a group of artisans. The group captain was a restoration carpenter for 32 years, He portrays a medieval village carpenter. We usually ask the public to name a modern woodworking tool and we can show them the medieval equivalent. We have not been beaten yet in 14 years of doing it. He could make that door easily and possibly in the middle of a field as well! BTW there is one tool that we cannot replicate in medieval times, can anyone guess what it is?

Probably any sword with a blade longer than 3 1/2" for fear of getting pulled over by the Sheriff! :mrgreen:

Jim
 

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