Wood splitting

[Kev grant]

Thanks so.... Much Bob, it make me feel much better to speak to someone that knows what there talking about. To tell you a bit about me, I'm a car salesman to trade and have always had a love for woodworking, making little things around the house Etc then a little over a year ago I got made redundant, I made my little girl a toy box ( Out of MDF ) and all my friends and family said I should start selling them and this is where it has got me, so I have stupidly started a small woodworking buisness not being a joiner or carpenter, you must think I'm a total fool. I did consider mortice and tennon joints but it was something I was going to have to work on as my only teacher is the internet. I did'nt for 1 min consider all the movement in the wood when I originally designed the box, I have completed almost 40 of these since November and everyone of them are now starting to come back aargh . I'm gonna try building 1 out of 18mm ply and 1 from pre T&G boards today and see how I get on. When I get more pics I 'll stick more up. Cheers again

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

You're welcome Kev. I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, you sound like a real action oriented bloke...good for you by grasping the nettle and getting on with it. I think you've cracked the difficult bit which is to locate and develop the market....now you just need a little more on the technical/education side to bring your knowledge and skills up to meet the demand you've already created.

It does sound like you'll need to replace many of those customers purchases if they're to remain customers! This new approach and settling on a new design should give you the inventory you need to fix their problems. Then they'll refer you on the strength you're honourable because of your after sales service. It will mean some hard work for you though. I would look upon it as a masterclass in toy chest/seat design. What you have to date is a prototype....now you know EXACTLY what to avoid in the future which is all about refining your product strategy/business model....nothing is wasted...just lessons learned and that's it.

Check in here regularly and the forum folks will be sure to help you out as you go, step by step. We encourage much picture use because otherwise its difficult to imagine the specifics of your problems.

I'll tell you now...if you can somehow get the use of beadboard into the product and avoid over promising the pine it will make it all a lot easier. If the promise of natural wood is critical then of course you cant. Its just that I notice they were painted....which makes me think....who cares what the underlying wood is? Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Jacob]

..... started a small woodworking buisness not being a joiner or carpenter, you must think I'm a total fool. ....

Got to start somewhere!
Anyway you have cracked what many people find to be the biggest problem - actually selling the stuff.

What Bob is describing is pretty much the basis of a lot of trad joinery; designing in such a way that movement is possible, without spoiling the product.
It is possible to use very wide and shrinkage prone panels as long as they are in slots and can move.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Final close up to illustrate. This was some spare oak I had for a different planter project. Still thin panels......1/2"
thick

 

[Kev grant]

I can't thank all you guys enough, it does give me the push to get cracking and start again what I didn't want was to rebuild the returns and for the exact same to star again as I was pretty sure it was to do with the movement and wood not being dry but did'nt have a clue if I was correct or to even start rectifying the issues. I don't have a router table so everything was done by hand that's why I never T&G'd the boards to start and thought glue and clamps would do the trick. I have a shed load of wood in the workshop so rather than go buying pre T&G boards I'm gonna go get a router table and do it myself rather than spend money on new wood. I also have a 18mm board of ply so I'm gonna make one out of that today also and see which one comes up best in all accounts, aesthetics, cost, time etc . I'll let you all no how I get on and hopefully something will work out. I'll also get some pics up as they come in of customers.
I also forgot to say the other problem with using MDF or ply is that we sell them in either, White painted , natural clear varnish or a dark oak stain. I'll put up a few pics that my wife took for the website etc before they started messing up :?

Honestly guys you are all life savers, cheers

 

[Kev grant]

Before they messed up

 

[PAC1]

The painted ones can be MDF
if you continue with t&g boarding pre finish the t&g boards including the tongue before you put it together then if the boards shrink you do not have light stripes.

 

[lanemaux]

This sort of thing happens more often than you might think Kev. My mother-in- law had some kitchen cabinets fitted some years back and decided to replace the door from her mud room to the kitchen spur of the moment. The contractors built her a very nice looking door with 2 panels and a glass top panel , the wood stained to match her kitchen.It had nicely routed details and was hung very well in the existing opening. Looked a very proffesional job til late autumn. That was when the humidity made the wood panels do what wood does ... shrink. Both panels now had nearly identical splits in the center because they were glued in tight all the way round. These guys were builders , with name of company on the sides of trucks full of expensive pro grade tools but they were not joiners. they worked mostly with engineered wood cabinets and so were not dealing with wood movement in the field they worked. My guess is that there is darn little wood movement in most cars. Keep at it amigo , those look like very nice work barring a mistake in design. And I'll bet that it is one you won't repeat either.

 

[blackrodd]

This should show the principle of joinery behind a wooden frame that houses a floating wooden tongue and groove panel. For the sake of cost and tool avoidance, you could probably join the corners with dowels or just mechanical fixings to avoid the hassle/time of mortise and tenon. But the principle of the floating panel is what I'm driving at here. That's the solution in first principles, the frame joinery could even be done with metal L brackets!! Or use the bead board/mdf and change the promise on your website

Hope this helps anyway.

Really good WIP R.O.Bob,as an aside, Can you tell me if the cutters you used in the T&G are router cutters, or spindle? Rodders

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The painted ones can be MDF
if you continue with t&g boarding pre finish the t&g boards including the tongue before you put it together then if the boards shrink you do not have light stripes.

That is tip top advice....I'd forgotten to add that and have fallen down that bear trap myself.

 

[will1983]

***** Post removed by member *****

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Really good WIP R.O.Bob,as an aside, Can you tell me if the cutters you used in the T&G are router cutters, or spindle? Rodders

Thanks Rodders....router bit...installed in a table.

 

[Kev grant]

Thanks guys your advice is all spot on and stuff I 'll certainly take on board when sorting my mess out. I have already started on an 18mm ply version and want to get it finished tonight so I can get it sprayed and see how it looks when it's painted, I'll try a T&G version tomorrow after I go get a router table. I'm gutted to think that I Made almost 40 of them since November and I'm almost certainly gonna have to re -do the lot if I did'nt laugh I'd cry but as you guys say its a massive learning curve and I won't make the same mistake again!!!

Thanks for all your positive comments about them it gives me the kick up the rear I need to start them all again lol
The name etc on the front is just 6mm MDF board, I stencil the letters out then cut them on my scroll saw then just decorated to match the fabric on the lid, to be honest personalising it is the easy bit for me, it the technical stuff that seems to be really letting me down (hammer)

 

[Kev grant]

P.s. Never watched new yankee workshop Will but I'm gonna go onto planner and try and record it tonight.

Cheers, I'm looking forward to it

 

[Boatfixer]

I think you probably have the main bits covered but one other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you seem to have a painted outer and an untreated inside. This can lead to boards cupping as one side can absorb moisture at a different rate to the other. Anyway hope all goes well with the redesign.


Graham

 

[Chrispy]

Kev if you can change the design slightly by having the grain in the boarding running around the box instead of up and down, but make sure there is not any vertical corner blocks, then you will be OK glueing it together as you are, you will need to use ply or loose t&g in the bottom. Chris

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

It does occur to me that if budget stretches to it.....paying a local cabinet maker to spend just a day making it with you....a one on one teaching session essentially. That approach might speed up time and upload all the knowledge you need in a very focused and pragmatic way. Half a day would likely do it to cover all the bases assuming you had all the tooling setup and the material ready. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Kev grant]

Thanks guys , Bob funny you should say that because I have spike about that to my wife since I started but in the summer they seemed to be O.K. , we'll to the best of my knowledge ( touch wood ) I totally wish I had now tho I think that's something that I'm definitely going to do tomorrow. Have you got any idea how much a good cabinet maker would charge to spend the day with me? And is it something that most would do or would I need to try find one that would do that sort of thing? I did consider contacting the local high schools tech dept to see if anyone there did it and also looked at night classes but none of the nite classes seemed to be relevant to what I'm looking to learn.

We'll the ply box is built and I'm just waiting on the top and bottom trims to dry before a good sanding.

Just on the off chance I don't suppose you have any tips in how to disguise the horrible plywood edge at the sides and top? I was just thinking of running a good amount off wood filler down them prior to final sanding and painting ?

 

[mtr1]

Kev if you can change the design slightly by having the grain in the boarding running around the box instead of up and down, but make sure there is not any vertical corner blocks, then you will be OK glueing it together as you are, you will need to use ply or loose t&g in the bottom. Chris

+1

This is how most blanket boxes/toy boxes are made, mailee has made a few on the projects forum take a look. I believe his are dovetailed together using a jig.

 

[Giff]

Have you anywhere locally that sell re-claimed timber ? Yellow pine sawn from baulks is very stable, and you could mould it with a router…. and they should cut it to your thicknesses.